Moving from 2 part to all for reef

[HouseofStark]

Looking for some guidance. For the last 2.5 years I’ve used BRS 2 part for my dosing. Using Trident and DOS it has been on the rails. I really was Interested in a one part doing option so this past week shut off the DOS and have a Kamoer x2 dosing all for reef. I have a 90 gal volume system. I’ve been dosing right around 18ml over 12 times in a 24hr period. My ca and mg are dead steady +- 5. But my dkh seems to be free falling. I ran the tank using 2 part at 8.3. Since last Tuesday night when I shut it off, it’s fell each time tested (trident). I’m down to 7.3. The lowest the tank has ever been.

Looking at all for reef instructions it tells me ca stable dkh falling I need to dose balling b. Is that what I need to do? Never have done the balling method stepping out of my comfort zone.

 

[HouseofStark]

I have some BRS sodium bicarb left over I’m going to use to bump the dkh back up in the meantime. But with ca and mg dead steady, how do I go about getting dkh to 8 and keep it there?

 

[SDLlama]

I have some BRS sodium bicarb left over I’m going to use to bump the dkh back up in the meantime. But with ca and mg dead steady, how do I go about getting dkh to 8 and keep it there?

The metabolic process used to convert AFR to measurable alkalinity can take some time to get up to speed. Keep manually dosing sodium bicarb to keep your alkalinity level steady until the AFR is fully metabolized and able to keep levels steady on it's own. Assuming you correctly calculated the ml equivalent from 2 part to AFR based on dKH/ml, only time is needed for it to stabilize.
Long term, you may still need to supplement the AFR dose with additional sodium bicarbonate or calcium chloride depending on test results, but this should only be occasional minor tweaks.

 

[HouseofStark]

Thanks for the help, I knew it was going to take a bit. But I figured 5 days, something would have stabilized and started to show on tests. I’m still on the initial dose.. (5ml per 26gal). Which at my 90 gal I figured 17.3mls, so I rounded to 18mls. I’ve just noticed mag and ca are really stable at that dose. So I was kinda waiting on the alk to show up, but so far hasn’t.

previously I was dosing on the same system 50 mls of BRS 2 part…alk and ca. not sure what that calculates to AFR. Didn’t find any conversion chart to go off.

Below are my graphs since switching over. The highlighted or selected time frame is after the switch.

 

[SDLlama]

Do you know if you were using sodium bicarbonate or soda ash for the alkalinity portion of the BRS 2 part? I'm assuming sodium bicarbonate based on your comment of having some of it left.

Assuming you were using 50ml of sodium bicarbonate per day on a 90 gallon volume system, that equates to roughly 0.39 dKH/day. An equivalent AFR dose is roughly 23.7ml to provide the same 0.39 dKH/day.

If you were using 50ml of soda ash per day on a 90 gallon volume system, that equates to roughly 0.78 dKH/day. An equivalent AFR dose is roughly 47.4ml to provide the same 0.78 dKH/day.

Some may say to dose AFR based on calcium test result in lieu of alkalinity test results. However, calcium test results (including the Trident) are not precise enough from test to test to tell whether levels are rising or falling without looking for a trend over a period of time. I'd recommend dosing AFR based on alkalinity results as those are arguably more precise and quicker to rise and fall with changes in dosing or coral consumption.

Over time, if you notice calcium trending up with steady alkalinity, modify your AFR dose lower to maintain calcium and then supplement manually with sodium bicarbonate to maintain alkalinity. If you notice calcium trending down over time with steady alkalinity, supplement manually with calcium chloride to maintain calcium.

 

[HouseofStark]

I was using soda ash for daily dosing of my 2 part. I have and used Bbicarb for adjustments which I rarely needed, due to being dialed in. That’s why I have some BRS bicarb left over. So you believe I would/will need to be dosing around 47mls of AFR?!?

I’m surprised due to some fellow reefers with larger systems and mainly sps that are dosing 25ml or so.

Do you think keep bumping with bi carb or up my AFR dosing?

 

[NotoriousDMC]

I went from Red Sea Alk, Ca and Mg (which worked great). to AFR. I changed only for convenience and because of the powder option. I, too, had problems keeping my Alk where I generally want it: 9dkh. I’m currently at 50ml AFR on a total 80g system (not adjusted for rock, etc.)—RSR 300XL.

Been using AFR for several weeks and agree completely that the numbers are incredibly steady.

Trident numbers today: Ca 484; Mg 1371; Alk 8.69. I’ve recently started supplementing with RS liquid Alk and plan to continue lowering AFR until Ca is consistently closer to 450 and will up the RS, which I THINK also has the added benefit of a PH boost.

FWIW, I found that dosing early morning helped to allow time for the Alk to metabolize. Also, AFR crusted at the end of my dosing tube (same with RS). I installed a T and it now goes through my ATK and consistently gets washed with RODI/ATO. I diluted the RS Alk with RODI. I also purchased a magnetic stirrer to mix powder AFR from now on.

 

[HouseofStark]

I have my dosing tube suspended above my return chamber. Just to make sure there was no water contact and no caking….once I get it dialed in I might move over to one of the DDR containers and use my DOS to add AFR.

I also got the magnetic stirrer and gram scale to mix up my 1000mls. Water, AFR, turn on stirrer and walk away.

So currently dosing 18mls, you guys feel I could double to say 36mls over the day and not cause and issue?

I run my tank at 8.3 460 and 1350.

 

[NotoriousDMC]

I’m relatively new to the hobby so hesitant to give anyone advice. All I can say is that I went slow and every few days (2-3) I upped by only the recommended dosage per gallons of estimated water volume.

I should also give a kudos to TM as I emailed them in the first few days, got a response from Lou asking me to call him, and then talked AFR for almost 45 mins.

 

[Acros]

To avoid AFR caking at the end of my dosing line, I have it submerged in water. I learned about this on the @telegraham youtube stream. It is ok to do so with a good dosing pump such as kamoer X1 pro or Ghl doser.

I might install check valves just in case. So far it has not siphoned more liquid than the set dose amount.

 

[Acros]

On the alk part, this is a situation that people could run into. @Lou Ekus from tropic marine has talked about this in various live streams.

The suggestion is to dose alk solution as needed if AFR does not meet your alk needs. Personally, I would try to maintain alk with AFR as long as calcium is within a safe range. If calcium starts creeps up too high, I would dose alk solution without increasing AFR dosage.

It is also explained here:

Tropic Marin | Aquarium | Produktinformationen

Tropic Mairn - The aquatic life science company. Wir stellen hochwertige Salze, Additive und Wassertests vorwiegend für Meerwasseraquarien her. Korallen, Fische und Wirbellose in Ihrem Aquarium fühlen sich mit unseren Produkten wohl.

www.tropic-marin-smartinfo.com

 

[SDLlama]

I was using soda ash for daily dosing of my 2 part. I have and used Bbicarb for adjustments which I rarely needed, due to being dialed in. That’s why I have some BRS bicarb left over. So you believe I would/will need to be dosing around 47mls of AFR?!?

I’m surprised due to some fellow reefers with larger systems and mainly sps that are dosing 25ml or so.

Do you think keep bumping with bi carb or up my AFR dosing?

I would up your AFR dose to satisfy the alkalinity demand of your tank. Based on the numbers, AFR is just a hair more potent than BRS soda ash, so your daily dose will need to be just a hair less than what you were dosing previously to maintain alkalinity (47.3 ml for AFR vs 50ml for soda ash).

A better way to compare calcification rates from tank to tank is dKH consumed per day, not ml of additive. All additives vary in potency and all tanks vary in system volume. However, dKH consumed per day is directly comparable. Based on your previous dosing being dialed in, your tank consumed 0.78 dkH per day. That value really isn't at all high and is actually in a fairly typical range.

If I were you, I'd up my AFR dose to about 47ml per day to match your previous dKH dosing level and adjust as required from there. The reason your alkalinity keeps dropping is you simply aren't dosing enough AFR to offset the consumption of the corals in your tank. Manual dosing of sodium bicarbonate is fine, but won't make up for your lower than required AFR dose long term.

 

[Lou Ekus]

Looking for some guidance. For the last 2.5 years I’ve used BRS 2 part for my dosing. Using Trident and DOS it has been on the rails. I really was Interested in a one part doing option so this past week shut off the DOS and have a Kamoer x2 dosing all for reef. I have a 90 gal volume system. I’ve been dosing right around 18ml over 12 times in a 24hr period. My ca and mg are dead steady +- 5. But my dkh seems to be free falling. I ran the tank using 2 part at 8.3. Since last Tuesday night when I shut it off, it’s fell each time tested (trident). I’m down to 7.3. The lowest the tank has ever been.

Looking at all for reef instructions it tells me ca stable dkh falling I need to dose balling b. Is that what I need to do? Never have done the balling method stepping out of my comfort zone.

You have evaluated this situation correctly. If your Ca and Mg are both stable, at you desired concentrations, using your current dose of AFR, then you will want to make up the difference by using some of the Balling B (sodium bicarbonate). If you just increase your AFR dosage, then you will exceed your desired concentrations of Ca and Mg as you dose more. If you are coming from a two part system, my assumption is that your were probably dosing more of the part B
(alkalinity) then the corresponding amount of the part A (Ca). This can happen in some cases due to additional alkalinity consumption over and above the alkalinity that is used in coral calcifications. These additional alkalinity consumptions often relate to either internal tank flow, CO2, or aeration. You might w2ant to look at those factors in your system set up.

A better way to compare calcification rates from tank to tank is dKH consumed per day, not ml of additive. All additives vary in potency and all tanks vary in system volume. However, dKH consumed per day is directly comparable.

This is somewhat true. But due to these additional alkalinity consumptions, it is much more accurate to use Ca consumption as the indicator of calcification rates. There is very little (other than precipitation) besides calcification that, that can take Ca out of solution.

I hope this is helpful.

 

[HouseofStark]

Guys, you are the best!!!! This is was what I was looking for. This am I upped my dosing to 36ml going to watch my CA and Mg and see if they continue to stay stable....I believe Im still a bit short, but taking it slow. If the CA and Mg do trend upwards, Ill dial back the AFR and add in some part B.

@Lou Ekus I would agree that my tank does use slightly more alk than calcium......but really not much. I looked at my DOS charts over the last month and they were within 2-4mls per day. My thought is I run higher PO4 than Id like (.10-.20 due to heavy stock. So I think my Ca is a bit hampered.

While I got you...so I purchased a box of A and B for adjustments....Planned this out a bit because I struggled with Kalk being an all in one solution, I always had a parameter out of wack. This was the reason I moved to 2 part.....(full control of each)

So to mix up a gallon of part B, and or even part A for adjustments... using 1 gallon jugs
1 gal of RODI and 286g of part B
1 gal of RODI and 288g of part A

Is that correct, if so there a calculator some where that would tell me how much to dose...says of part B to get my numbers where I need them?

 

[Lou Ekus]

Guys, you are the best!!!! This is was what I was looking for. This am I upped my dosing to 36ml going to watch my CA and Mg and see if they continue to stay stable....I believe Im still a bit short, but taking it slow. If the CA and Mg do trend upwards, Ill dial back the AFR and add in some part B.

@Lou Ekus I would agree that my tank does use slightly more alk than calcium......but really not much. I looked at my DOS charts over the last month and they were within 2-4mls per day. My thought is I run higher PO4 than Id like (.10-.20 due to heavy stock. So I think my Ca is a bit hampered.

While I got you...so I purchased a box of A and B for adjustments....Planned this out a bit because I struggled with Kalk being an all in one solution, I always had a parameter out of wack. This was the reason I moved to 2 part.....(full control of each)

So to mix up a gallon of part B, and or even part A for adjustments... using 1 gallon jugs
1 gal of RODI and 286g of part B
1 gal of RODI and 288g of part A

Is that correct, if so there a calculator some where that would tell me how much to dose...says of part B to get my numbers where I need them?

If the PO4 concentration is limiting the Ca uptake from calcification, then it also limits the alkalinity uptake from calcification. That was my point exactly. So there still might be some small other cause for alkalinity uptake. Here is a chart that gives you the concentrations of the Balling solutions. The calculator is temporarily out of service as we have just redone our website and we are having some difficulty getting it to work on the new one. It will be reinstated very soon. But the calculation should be doable from this chart.

 

[HouseofStark]

Perfect and thank you! I noticed others linking to it, said page not displayed. I appreciate you and your time!

 

[HouseofStark]

Quick update. I ended up bumping my AFR dose up to 47.3 like you guys calculated. Dkh is now at 8 and ca and mag have stayed unchanged at this point.

 

[HouseofStark]

Getting a nice pattern now after increasing my dose. Really happy with the stability. I thought my 2 part was good. Over the week of testing (~10 trident tests) my mag has been within 4 points and my ca within 10 points. That’s less than the margin of error on the trident!

One thing I am stumped on is…..I don’t know if my filtration just caught stride or the corals are just loving the change, but my nutrients have dropped a lot too. I’m hoping the corals are up taking it which would be a great sign. I haven’t made any other changes, so my fingers are crossed. I have fed a bit more just to make sure I don’t bottom out. I’ve always ran .1 to .15 phos and 10-15 no3, which I was ok with, but last test was .05 and 3. I figured something I screwed up but after 2 more consecutive tests it’s was legit.

Back to smoothing out the overnight alk swing. Pulling back on the midnight to 6am dose….to knock down that spike. Orherwise I’m settling pretty close to my 8dkh goal… really liking the change so far!

 

[NotoriousDMC]

Very, very similar situation. The stability of Ca and Mg is just unreal. Straight lines on the Trident all the time—approx 450 and 1330. I’m getting the Alk swing as well, and am dosing very small amounts of (diluted) left-over Red Sea Alk every hour, all day/night. When that depletes, I’ll likely continue it, mostly because I don’t want to recalculate changing to TM Balling B. I run Alk around 9 BTW; if I let it go around 8, my guess is I’d be fine with just AFR.

My nutrients are also low—as in zero on Hannah checkers—but I have chaeto growing and some bubble algae so there are SOME nutrients getting picked up. I’ve lowered my NoPox dosing, opened my ClariSea to let some water pass through and am continuing to feed pellets and Reef Frenzy heavy every day. I am very much thinking about switching from NoPox to TM Bacto Balance because of the stability I am seeing with AFR and the good reviews I’ve seen for that product—particularly not letting nutrients bottom out.

 

[HouseofStark]

Things have been going well I am happy that I made the switch. One thing, Im unsure of is, my alk is staying within .1 for multiple days and my ca is staying within 10 ppm multiple days. My mag though, is slowly is dropping. Ive been correcting by hand dosing to bring from 1300- back to 1350 where I want it. Is there anything I should do to correct this or is this normal?