Multiple dwarf angels in one tank?

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Tori

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You have my entire stocking list with the exception of the flame. I've heard too many reports of them picking off softies and my whole system is softies only.

Let me know how the multicolors do. They are a deeper water angel and it's been speculated that the high lights and warmer temps do not fare them well.

My next addiction I'm going to go after is a false lemon peel/heralds.
The Multicolor Angels seem to be doing well. Probably just in my head but I feel like there's even less aggression between the Angels now. And strangely my Royal Grammas are actually the ones who disappear during the peak light periods of the day, even though the Multicolors are deeper water fish, I think. I would include my yellow assessor in that but I'm lucky to see him at all once a week.
 
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The Multicolor Angels seem to be doing well. Probably just in my head but I feel like there's even less aggression between the Angels now. And strangely my Royal Grammas are actually the ones who disappear during the peak light periods of the day, even though the Multicolors are deeper water fish, I think. I would include my yellow assessor in that but I'm lucky to see him at all once a week.

This was observed by the guy in Australia who has an 8ft reef with I think 20+ angel species in it. It becomes a pecking order and a more the merrier kind of effect. I don't know if I will get that many but it certainly is a nice goal to set. I would need to rethink rock work to incorporate more swimming space and hidey holes.

Tori, I noticed you have an assortment of LPS corals albeit nothing "meaty" like acanthophylia or cinorina. The angels do not pester anything?

I don't know much about angel pair behavior but so far the eibli and coral beauty and not far from each other most times.
 

Tori

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This was observed by the guy in Australia who has an 8ft reef with I think 20+ angel species in it. It becomes a pecking order and a more the merrier kind of effect. I don't know if I will get that many but it certainly is a nice goal to set. I would need to rethink rock work to incorporate more swimming space and hidey holes.

Tori, I noticed you have an assortment of LPS corals albeit nothing "meaty" like acanthophylia or cinorina. The angels do not pester anything?

I don't know much about angel pair behavior but so far the eibli and coral beauty and not far from each other most times.
Thanks for sharing that info. I haven't seen that tank but that definitely seems to go along with my observations.

As far as the LPS go, the angels do not seem to pester them at all. I have some micromussa but yeah, I don't think really anything considered "meaty coral". Part of that is probably because those are usually not very cheap and I wouldn't really want to push my luck or risk the angels eating them. Occasionally the angels will nip at the rockwork pretty close the zoas and they'll close up but nothing too concerning. I can however honestly say that I've never seen an SPS polyp extended in my tank though. I kind of assume that's just the price of having the angels but I guess that could also just be down to my water quality.

That would be insanely cool if your eibli and coral beauty paired up produced a hybrid. I'm not really sure how to tell when they've paired up either but maybe we'll a hybrid from your tank on Reef Builders one day. I wonder if it would look as insane as the xanthic coral beauty from the article you posted
 
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Tori

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@Tori How big is your tank and what are the dimensions? Would love a list of your total fish stock, angels and non-angels. Thanks! Nice tank you have.
Thanks! It's a Waterbox 130.1 and I think the dimensions are 4' x 22" x 20" or close to that.

Stock list:

2x blue side fairy wrasse
3x chalk bass
2x royal gramma
1 yellow assessor
1 yellow banded possum wrasse
1 purple firefish
1 gold spot goby
1 golden neon goby
2x flameback angelfish
2x multicolor angelfish
1 pygmy angelfish
1 flame angelfish
1 coral beauty angelfish
 

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7 angels! That’s quite a list! Any aggression between them and how long have you had them? Your tank’s got 2 of my favorite fish families: Angels and Basslets. Do the Grammas pair up / do they spawn? What about your trio of Chalk Bass any spawning?
 
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7 angels! That’s quite a list! Any aggression between them and how long have you had them? Your tank’s got 2 of my favorite fish families: Angels and Basslets. Do the Grammas pair up / do they spawn? What about your trio of Chalk Bass any spawning?

Not really much aggression from the Angels right now. They seem to have established a hierarchy and all seem to mostly be okay swimming together. Occasionally still the odd couple second chase here and there but nothing serious. I honestly don't know how to tell if the Royal Grammas are paired. Sometimes they're, together sometimes they're not. Haven't seen any aggression, other than them occasionally being face to face with their mouths open like they're rechecking to see who's bigger. The chalk bass seem to keep their distance from each other except during feeding times. I'm not even sure I would know if there was any spawning but I haven't seen anything to make me think there is.
 

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Thanks! It's a Waterbox 130.1 and I think the dimensions are 4' x 22" x 20" or close to that.

Stock list:

2x blue side fairy wrasse
3x chalk bass
2x royal gramma
1 yellow assessor
1 yellow banded possum wrasse
1 purple firefish
1 gold spot goby
1 golden neon goby
2x flameback angelfish
2x multicolor angelfish
1 pygmy angelfish
1 flame angelfish
1 coral beauty angelfish
You're talking about a tank of less than 350 liters, and that number of angelfish seems like a fantastic job. I'm thinking about a 120 gallon tank but with less angels than you, I hope it works the same way, how did you deal with the aggression?
 
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Tori

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You're talking about a tank of less than 350 liters, and that number of angelfish seems like a fantastic job. I'm thinking about a 120 gallon tank but with less angels than you, I hope it works the same way, how did you deal with the aggression?
Thanks! It was probably just a lot of luck honestly. I tried to be strategic with the additions but it was really just me taking my best guesses at what I thought might work. One of the first fish I added to the tank and the first angelfish was the coral beauty. It was one of the captive bred ones from biota, I believe, and it was tiny when I first got it. Probably about the size of a quarter. It had been in the tank for several months and was pretty established before I added the flame backs next so I wanted one to be a little bigger than the coral beauty and one to be around the same size. There was a lot of chasing but no real violence and they settled down pretty soon after. I added the flame angel next, a few months later, and I tried to get one just slightly bigger than the current fish to balance out their home field advantage but I ended up getting one slightly smaller than the bigger flame back. Seemed to work for the most part still but the flame back stayed at the top of the hierarchy. For the pygmy angel I just used a breeder box for a few days since he was on the smaller side compared to the other fish. In my experience the pygmy angels can usually handle themselves pretty well with larger fish. When I picked up the multicolors recently I tried getting one bigger than the largest established angel and one on the smaller side. The bigger multicolor is at the top of the hierarchy now and he seems to be a peaceful ruler. Again this was just me making my best guess at what I thought might work. I can't say there was too much rhyme or reason behind it but happy to share just in case there's anything that helps.
 

Tori

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@Tori Thanks for the info. You have a great collection of fish. By Pygmy Angel you mean C. Flavicauda AKA Pacific Pygmy Angel? Are your Multicolors and Flamebacks paired?
Maybe It likely refers to Centropyge argi, which I've seen labeled "pigmy" angelfish for as long as I can remember...
Thanks! And yes, Centropyge Argi, sorry. I only learned of the other variants like the Pacific Pygmy recently so I keep forgetting there are others. I guess the Centropyge Argi is probably more commonly called a Cherub Angelfish.

I don't think any of them are paired up but I could be wrong. I see them swimming together occasionally but probably less than 10 percent of the time. At the very least they're not trying to kill each other, which makes me happy. What are some signs that they've paired up?
 
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I think the biggest sign is that they will follow each other around, swim circles around each other, and maybe if you get lucky, they will spawn by rising upwards in the water column with the male helping the female release eggs.
 

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Not a lot of research goes into mixing Angels while plenty of people, thread after thread, keep asking about how to mix Tangs including those of the same genus. I feel mixing Angels, dwarf and large, is not as big of a no-no as many sites make it out to be.
 

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I think the biggest sign is that they will follow each other around, swim circles around each other, and maybe if you get lucky, they will spawn by rising upwards in the water column with the male helping the female release eggs.
I can't say I've seen this exactly. The multicolors were just kind of rising in the water column together but it only lasted 10 seconds and definitely no eggs were released or anything like that. I'll try to pay more attention.

Not a lot of research goes into mixing Angels while plenty of people, thread after thread, keep asking about how to mix Tangs including those of the same genus. I feel mixing Angels, dwarf and large, is not as big of a no-no as many sites make it out to be.
I've kind of noticed this too. It's far from impossible but I don't want it to sound completely risk free either, they can definitely kill each other. I bought the Cherub angel as a mated pair but the larger killed the smaller overnight in the acclimation box. That at least taught me to acclimate in separate boxes or with a divider. Agreed it's definitely not as big of a no-no still, especially since most site just flat out say can not be kept with conspecifics or something along those lines.
 
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Thanks! It was probably just a lot of luck honestly. I tried to be strategic with the additions but it was really just me taking my best guesses at what I thought might work. One of the first fish I added to the tank and the first angelfish was the coral beauty. It was one of the captive bred ones from biota, I believe, and it was tiny when I first got it. Probably about the size of a quarter. It had been in the tank for several months and was pretty established before I added the flame backs next so I wanted one to be a little bigger than the coral beauty and one to be around the same size. There was a lot of chasing but no real violence and they settled down pretty soon after. I added the flame angel next, a few months later, and I tried to get one just slightly bigger than the current fish to balance out their home field advantage but I ended up getting one slightly smaller than the bigger flame back. Seemed to work for the most part still but the flame back stayed at the top of the hierarchy. For the pygmy angel I just used a breeder box for a few days since he was on the smaller side compared to the other fish. In my experience the pygmy angels can usually handle themselves pretty well with larger fish. When I picked up the multicolors recently I tried getting one bigger than the largest established angel and one on the smaller side. The bigger multicolor is at the top of the hierarchy now and he seems to be a peaceful ruler. Again this was just me making my best guess at what I thought might work. I can't say there was too much rhyme or reason behind it but happy to share just in case there's anything that helps.
Sorry for the late reply, you have a good selection of angels and even so with your description you seem to have done a great job, managing coral beauty and flame angelfish in a place with more angelfish is quite difficult as they take over the tank quickly and regularly they don't allow more angels, the same goes for P. imperator, so they seem like the least appropriate angels to add as the first option if the goal is to keep multiple angelfish at once. I have also read horror stories with any member of the Xiphipops complex, that's right, the smallest of the whole family, these guys get to behave like real miniature demons, lol, but reading cases like yours, with success with all these fish it is encouraging.
As I mentioned before, I plan a tank of approximately 120 gallons, one of my biggest wishes is multibar angelfish, it may be one of the first to be added to the tank, a few hours ago I saw one available here but it didn't look good, breathing hard difficulty and lethargic, is not a good sign.
You are correct about Centropyge argi, it's commonly called pigmy angelfish, almost automatically, and people forget that it's a complete complex, Centropyge resplendens comes in here, an amazing fish and my favorite of all time, but C .argi is the smallest of all, and also the easiest to find.
 

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Copps had a pair of Colini and might still have the female. He got the pair in 2009 I think so if female’s still alive, it’s 14+ years old. He was saying how his pair did surprisingly well despite being told that they needed very peaceful tank mates and couldn’t handle the rough and tumble of a tank with lots of other angels and active Tangs. Turns out they did fine, and the male when he had it was dominant over his Multibar male.

If I am able to get my hands on a pair of CB ones from Atoll Farm over in Thailand, I will probably set up a 55 gallon for them with the addition of a Royal Gramma. That’s my plan.
 
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Sorry for the late reply, you have a good selection of angels and even so with your description you seem to have done a great job, managing coral beauty and flame angelfish in a place with more angelfish is quite difficult as they take over the tank quickly and regularly they don't allow more angels, the same goes for P. imperator, so they seem like the least appropriate angels to add as the first option if the goal is to keep multiple angelfish at once. I have also read horror stories with any member of the Xiphipops complex, that's right, the smallest of the whole family, these guys get to behave like real miniature demons, lol, but reading cases like yours, with success with all these fish it is encouraging.
As I mentioned before, I plan a tank of approximately 120 gallons, one of my biggest wishes is multibar angelfish, it may be one of the first to be added to the tank, a few hours ago I saw one available here but it didn't look good, breathing hard difficulty and lethargic, is not a good sign.
You are correct about Centropyge argi, it's commonly called pigmy angelfish, almost automatically, and people forget that it's a complete complex, Centropyge resplendens comes in here, an amazing fish and my favorite of all time, but C .argi is the smallest of all, and also the easiest to find.

Interesting that you mention imperator as the devil as I have not experienced this although mine is still in juvenile colors.perhaps as they mature into adults, the brain chemistry changes?

We are a full week into releasing the new ones and all is well so far. The CB, eibli, and Xanthurus mostly hang together while the imperator cruising in and out with an overwatch. Reminds me of middled dad on the recliner checking on the kids.

I will be taking a new video soon as the CB now is more comfortable and stays out in the open alot more. Infact to that extent, everyone does with the new fish cruising about. We noticed that before, the imperator and the xanthurus would be out maybe 30-40% of the time and most of that was at feeding. I feel now it's up to atleast 70%+. I'm watching to see if it's due to more fish means safer from predators, more fish, less holes to hide in or both. We will find out more as I add in other fish/species.

In other news I found a more effective feeding method for frozen and pellets. I throw the food in the return of the sump and let the pump suck it back into the tank. Ido not recommend this method on hardened foods that could damage your pump or large chunks that could clog the intake but for smaller fare, this works extremely well for distribution over the tank. This also helps prevent food being missed Incase fish are hiding from a human presence Infront of the tank.

We are looking at the next addition/s and have come up with a list. So I'd like to hear some thoughts.

1. Flame Hawkfish
2. False Lemon peel Angel/Heralds
3. Flame Angelfish
4. Midnight/Nox Angelfish
5. Rusty Angelfish
 
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Tori

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Interesting that you mention imperator as the devil as I have not experienced this although mine is still in juvenile colors.perhaps as they mature into adults, the brain chemistry changes?

We are a full week into releasing the new ones and all is well so far. The CB, eibli, and Xanthurus mostly hang together while the imperator cruising in and out with an overwatch. Reminds me of middled dad on the recliner checking on the kids.

I will be taking a new video soon as the CB now is more comfortable and stays out in the open alot more. Infact to that extent, everyone does with the new fish cruising about. We noticed that before, the imperator and the xanthurus would be out maybe 30-40% of the time and most of that was at feeding. I feel now it's up to atleast 70%+. I'm watching to see if it's due to more fish means safer from predators, more fish, less holes to hide in or both. We will find out more as I add in other fish/species.

In other news I found a more effective feeding method for frozen and pellets. I throw the food in the return of the sump and let the pump suck it back into the tank. Ido not recommend this method on hardened foods that could damage your pump or large chunks that could clog the intake but for smaller fare, this works extremely well for distribution over the tank. This also helps prevent food being missed Incase fish are hiding from a human presence Infront of the tank.

We are looking at the next addition/s and have come up with a list. So I'd like to hear some thoughts.

1. Flame Hawkfish
2. False Lemon peel Angel/Heralds
3. Flame Angelfish
4. Midnight/Nox Angelfish
5. Rusty Angelfish
It's hard to make a recommendation from your list, they all seem like great choices. The only one I've kept from the list is the flame angelfish and I have nothing bad to say about them. Would be cool to see them all added

I'm also curious where you keep your tank in your house, since you mentioned fish hiding during feeding time. I always had the same thing happen when my tanks were in a bedroom or area of the house where there was somewhat less traffic. My current tank, is the first time I've had my tank in a living room or really high traffic area and my fish seem to care less that I'm there now. They're all front and center during feeding time just waiting for me to drop the food in. I kind of assumed they just got use to people walking by a lot and aren't really afraid anymore but I'm wondering what everyone else's experience is. Even my possum wrasse just swims at the front of the glass when I'm there which seems unusual, but I guess the one exception would be the yellow assessor I rarely see.
 

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Interesting that you mention imperator as the devil as I have not experienced this although mine is still in juvenile colors.perhaps as they mature into adults, the brain chemistry changes?

We are a full week into releasing the new ones and all is well so far. The CB, eibli, and Xanthurus mostly hang together while the imperator cruising in and out with an overwatch. Reminds me of middled dad on the recliner checking on the kids.

I will be taking a new video soon as the CB now is more comfortable and stays out in the open alot more. Infact to that extent, everyone does with the new fish cruising about. We noticed that before, the imperator and the xanthurus would be out maybe 30-40% of the time and most of that was at feeding. I feel now it's up to atleast 70%+. I'm watching to see if it's due to more fish means safer from predators, more fish, less holes to hide in or both. We will find out more as I add in other fish/species.

In other news I found a more effective feeding method for frozen and pellets. I throw the food in the return of the sump and let the pump suck it back into the tank. Ido not recommend this method on hardened foods that could damage your pump or large chunks that could clog the intake but for smaller fare, this works extremely well for distribution over the tank. This also helps prevent food being missed Incase fish are hiding from a human presence Infront of the tank.

We are looking at the next addition/s and have come up with a list. So I'd like to hear some thoughts.

1. Flame Hawkfish
2. False Lemon peel Angel/Heralds
3. Flame Angelfish
4. Midnight/Nox Angelfish
5. Rusty Angelfish
That's right, Emperor angelfish is a poor option to enter a tank first if the goal is to keep more angelfish. As with all fish, there can be exceptions without a doubt, but most of the time they are quite annoying types, and as you mention, it gets worse as they grow. I love Centropyge nox, the black color is fantastic, if you can get it for your tank you should look at the size, I have never seen specimens smaller than 3 or 4", at least in Mexico, they reach a good size anyway.
 
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