Multiple sump chambers in series.

[John from Canada]

Hi everyone,
I’m starting the planning for my second reef tank.
I had a 90g in wall with a 50g 3 stage sump about 12 years ago, but I was too focused on the destination that I didn’t enjoy the ride.
skipped rodi
Skipped regular water changes
Skipped most chemistry

plumbed it, lit it and stocked it. As you can imagine, I went thru just about every noob catastrophe you can imagine. After a couple years, I shut it all down and have since moved homes.

now that I am older and wiser I would like to take a second crack at this and am completely committed to doing things ‘the right way’. I’d rather have a successful build that takes a year before it sees a fish, than to cut corners and fight with it more than I enjoy it.

my current home does not allow for an in-wall tank so I will be looking at stand alone options, but I am planning on utilizing a nearby storage room for my sump. This room, however, still needs to function as a storage room/ pantry so I can just start tossing 4’ long tanks in there.

my plan at this point, is to plumb 3x 55g poly barrels in series.
2” drain to barrel #1 which would be mostly filled with LR with egg crate above to support a skimmer And frag section.

barrel# 1 goes to barrel #3 which is simply a return barrel balanced between evap water and flow back capacity and an ATO.

Barrel #3 pumps back to DT, but also Ts off to fill barrel #2 which is a macro fuge that also empties to barrel #3.

my plan is to have the water enter the bottom of #1 and force up thru the rock and frag section and then 2” pvc across to #3 about 2/3s up. I’m not pushing water up a story so I don’t know if I’m going to get away with a submersible or external pump, but it will pump from the bottom. My theory is that water IN on top and OUT on the bottom may help with any bubbles.

#2 is fed by the return pump and exits via 2” pvc to #3 just as #1 did.

all three would than be linked (truly) in series at the very top by 2” pvc for flood prevention. I can also plumb directly to a drain in that storage room, but I’m not sure that’s necessary if the sump has been planned to accommodate the back flow.

I’ve been looking allllll over but I can’t find examples of this set up. What considerations do I need to make?

constructive criticism is very welcomed.
Cheers,
John

 

[Cory]

All i can say is id rather have glass than poly barrels. Ive been reading lots lately of plastics leaching various stuff we dont want.

 

[RocketEngineer]

To begin, barrels like that are a time bomb of crud collection. Cory is right, the reasons for clear tanks include allowing for inspection. That fish that suddenly disappeared may be happily living in your sump.

Second, I wouldn’t use 2” fo drains. A proper Bean Animal drain setup needs 1.5” at most and 1” for all but the largest tanks.

Third, what size is the main display? You seem to think a big sump is best but I’m worried your setting things up to be difficult to maintain. And if it’s hard, you’re less likely to do it as often as you should.

More details about the display will help with advice.

 

[John from Canada]

To begin, barrels like that are a time bomb of crud collection. Cory is right, the reasons for clear tanks include allowing for inspection. That fish that suddenly disappeared may be happily living in your sump.

Second, I wouldn’t use 2” fo drains. A proper Bean Animal drain setup needs 1.5” at most and 1” for all but the largest tanks.

Third, what size is the main display? You seem to think a big sump is best but I’m worried your setting things up to be difficult to maintain. And if it’s hard, you’re less likely to do it as often as you should.

More details about the display will help with advice.

So, as far as clean outs go, my plan was to plumb a ball valve on the bottom and kind of blow out the bottoms every now and then like an oil change. Water changes would either come from there or siphon.

I should clarify the 2” drain...that’s over designed for an aesthetic purpose.
at this point I’m planning on the overflows to collect in a 2” “main” that will be exposed between the tank and storage room. (Thinking about going clear, actually. Might be cool).

display isn’t completely hammered out yet but it’s in the 200g range.

I mean, if push comes to shove I can get a cheap aquarium and put it somewhere. I’m not trying to reinvent the wheel here. I’m just trying to get a larger volume than I’d otherwise be able to with a more traditional set up.

 

[Gtinnel]

I can't see any reason why it wouldn't work. Just remember that you need to have some way to make sure that the drain going from the fuge to the return barrel doesn't get clogged with macro algea. I think it would also be wise to install unions and valves between each barrel so that you have the ability to remove any barrel for cleaning if necessary.

I have a similar setup with aquariums for my sump where my refugium is a separate tank that is fed by my return and gravity flows back into the return section (although on a much, much smaller scale). I also left the skimmer section and return section as part of the same tank just separated with baffles.

I would also be afraid that water noise may be an issue as well, if where it is located matters.

 

[John from Canada]

I can't see any reason why it wouldn't work. Just remember that you need to have some way to make sure that the drain going from the fuge to the return barrel doesn't get clogged with macro algea. I think it would also be wise to install unions and valves between each barrel so that you have the ability to remove any barrel for cleaning if necessary.

I have a similar setup with aquariums for my sump where my refugium is a separate tank that is fed by my return and gravity flows back into the return section (although on a much, much smaller scale). I also left the skimmer section and return section as part of the same tank just separated with baffles.

I would also be afraid that water noise may be an issue as well, if where it is located matters.

So. I was thinking about egg crate just below the fuge drain to keep it obstruction free and flowing.

as for the noise, the barrel that the DT would empty into would be directly beside the main waste stack for the house, so I’m not overly concerned about the volume. In fact, I was thinking about adding a 90 to create a little waterfall/turbulence as it enters the bottom of the barrel.

that’s good advice to make sure that they’re set up in such a way that they can be brought offline for maintenance. Could literally drain, clean and refill with little trouble that way.

I’m also planning on using two matching barrels in the furnace room next door as a WC station. So one barrel out - one barrel in.

 

[Gtinnel]

I’m also planning on using two matching barrels in the furnace room next door as a WC station. So one barrel out - one barrel in.

Since you said you have a drain in the room where the barrels are why not just do one barrel for new saltwater and the old saltwater goes directly into a drain. IMO if a drain is convenient there isn't any reason to pump it into a container just to have to empty that container periodically.
That's the way I have my AWC setup.

 

[MnFish1]

Since you asked for comments/criticism - I might re-think what you're doing - which sounds overly complex. But - I might not be understanding what you're trying to do. How much water are you expecting to be in each barrel? They will be difficult to clean as others have said - but what are you trying to gain with such a large sump? How big is the tank - I mean if you're planning a 400 gallon tank - such a large volume might be great. The other thing - sorry - Is I can't quite picture exactly what this system is going to look like - are the barrels covered? what are the openings in the top. i.e. a drawing - or diagram of what you're going to do - including volumes, etc - might be helpful (also how far from the tank will the sump be. You may also have to worry some about humidity/salt in the 'storage area'. Its amazing - the amount of corrosion that is in the basement (which is large) - on things that have never been exposed to salt water itself. Like rust on heating vents that are a ways away from the tank, etc. In any case - a diagram would be really nice to see - and whatever you decide to do - good luck with your new set up!!

 

[schuby]

I'm a proponent of running macro-algae before the skimmer. This allows the macro-algae to consume as much as it can before the skimmer "eats". I want the macro-algae to be my main export mechanism for phosphate and nitrate.

I run AWC using two jugs. This easily allows me the ability to visually confirm that both the input and output is functioning, based on the level-changes in each jug: input should go down and output should go up, day-to-day.

 

[Gtinnel]

I run AWC using two jugs. This easily allows me the ability to visually confirm that both the input and output is functioning, based on the level-changes in each jug: input should go down and output should go up, day-to-day.

I check my salinity about every other day so I think I would catch mine pretty quickly if one side wasn't working. Plus I'm using a dosing pump that has both pump heads off of the same motor so that eliminates at least one of the failures that can occur to cause one of them to stop.

 

[John from Canada]

@Gtinnel that’s actually a better idea. I know that most people use a double container set up and I was just following suit. But I suppose I don’t need two in there.

@MnFish1
I did consider humidity and salt but perhaps not thoroughly enough. I had planned on the sump barrels to be open tops with egg crate on top to assist with gas exchange. I figured that I could chuck a bathroom fan in if I ever needed to.

I’m not really trying to accomplish anything. Just subscribing to the bigger is better theory. Barrels are cheap and easy to work on. A sump this big and versatile is just future-proofing. Instead of worrying about whether my all in one fuge is big enough, why not just build it stand alone. And than the idea snowballed.

I’ll work up a sketch and photos. Again, if you see a potential problem I’d love to hear about it. I’m not starting out half-cocked again!!

I want my DT to be about 200g and off the top of my head it would be maybe 15-20’ away from the sump.

 

[garbled]

Maybe take a look at "Seamless Sumps". I've been examining them for my setup, and they let you do something similar to what you propose, with maybe a better design than just big barrels.

 

[Gtinnel]

I did consider humidity and salt but perhaps not thoroughly enough.

Humidity is easy to take care off with a dehumidifier, and with a drain it's even better because you can let it continually drain instead of emptying it. My system is 150 gallon and I already have to keep a dehumidifier running year round to keep the humidity in my house reasonable.
The only downside to dehumidifiers is the couple hundred dollars to buy them and they use a lot of electricity to keep running 24/7

 

[John from Canada]

Alright.
here is a slap-dash visual of my plan.

I’d be happy to sketch out a to-scale floor plan as well.
let me know what you think. All feedback is welcomed

 

[MnFish1]

Alright.
here is a slap-dash visual of my plan.

I’d be happy to sketch out a to-scale floor plan as well.
let me know what you think. All feedback is welcomed

How big is the tank going to be? (and thanks for the drawing)

 

[John from Canada]

How big is the tank going to be? (and thanks for the drawing)

DT will be in the 200g range.
barrels would likely be 2/3 full to accommodate drains, so what’s that....35-40g each. So total Of 100+ g sump (which I don’t think is unreasonable). But what do I know lol.

I’m fully smart-home and would like to continue to integrate that into my build. I’m thinking about a wifi controller, webcams, solenoids, maintenance automation etc. I was hoping that the modular nature of this would be helpful to fabricate whatever the future holds. As you can see from the photos, I’m far from wealthy and this isn’t going to happen over night!!!

 

[MnFish1]

DT will be in the 200g range.
barrels would likely be 2/3 full to accommodate drains, so what’s that....35-40g each. So total Of 100+ g sump (which I don’t think is unreasonable). But what do I know lol.

I’m fully smart-home and would like to continue to integrate that into my build. I’m thinking about a wifi controller, webcams, solenoids, maintenance automation etc. I was hoping that the modular nature of this would be helpful to fabricate whatever the future holds. As you can see from the photos, I’m far from wealthy and this isn’t going to happen over night!!!

I guess I thought of a couple things.

1. The cost - the cost of maintaining the system over time will be a fair bit higher than if you just bought a 'tank-sump' system. Electricity pumping the water, heating the water, dehumidification, salt, any other additives
2. I cant tell - is there a sink/drain in the room/floor? Looking at the room for the sump - it seems to me you are going to need to ventilate that room?
3. I guess the main thing (to me) -is - is there really any benefit as compared to just buying a system? I kind of like DIY method - but - lets say you get through all the steps - and it just isn't functional - or doesnt work as well as you want? I.e. you can get a sump - for a 200 gallon tank - that would go in the stand - that has been 'proven' to work.

In any case I wish you well with your plans!

 

[Drewbacca]

So. I was thinking about egg crate just below the fuge drain to keep it obstruction free and flowing.

as for the noise, the barrel that the DT would empty into would be directly beside the main waste stack for the house, so I’m not overly concerned about the volume. In fact, I was thinking about adding a 90 to create a little waterfall/turbulence as it enters the bottom of the barrel.

that’s good advice to make sure that they’re set up in such a way that they can be brought offline for maintenance. Could literally drain, clean and refill with little trouble that way.

I’m also planning on using two matching barrels in the furnace room next door as a WC station. So one barrel out - one barrel in.

Use aquamesh..much better and more durable than eggcrate... get the black.. I use as a rectangular block with a slit so it sits over the baffle after my fuge. It comes in like 18 x 24 so you can cut whatever shspe you want to fit barrel. Popular in ponds.

 

[schuby]

I wish you the best of luck on your next tank. :) Please keep in mind that automation and monitoring are tools we may choose to employ to help us be successful reef-keepers. They will not replace us or our eyes looking at our tanks daily or weekly.

I've found that I get the best result when I have a purpose for what I do. Other people may have more complicated or simpler setups than mine, but we can all be successful if we understand "why". I think the major part of a mature reef tank is that the reef-keeper (me & you) becomes more mature, patient, and experienced: the tank follows us rather than the other way around.

 

[John from Canada]

I guess I thought of a couple things.

1. The cost - the cost of maintaining the system over time will be a fair bit higher than if you just bought a 'tank-sump' system. Electricity pumping the water, heating the water, dehumidification, salt, any other additives
2. I cant tell - is there a sink/drain in the room/floor? Looking at the room for the sump - it seems to me you are going to need to ventilate that room?
3. I guess the main thing (to me) -is - is there really any benefit as compared to just buying a system? I kind of like DIY method - but - lets say you get through all the steps - and it just isn't functional - or doesnt work as well as you want? I.e. you can get a sump - for a 200 gallon tank - that would go in the stand - that has been 'proven' to work.

In any case I wish you well with your plans!

1) I can absolutely appreciate the increased running costs. But does this system really add THAT much more volume than an under cabinet? If I have 200g in the main display and 60g in the sump or 100g in the sump, I feel like the end of year additional expenses would be negligible. It still all runs on only one return pump I could be wrong if those costs are exponential in anyway.

2) on the left side of the storage room photo there is the main stack from the second floor bathroom and kitchen.
on the right side, behind the coat racks, is the stairwell with the furnace/laundry room (complete with sink and floor drain) on the other side. It would be nothing to run pvc between the two rooms as they are simply framed and not even dry walled between. That’s where I’d be putting my rodi and mixing station.

3) benefits (as I see them).
-I've run an under cabinet sump before and I hate working on my hands and knees overtop of carpet. I’d rather have the extra space and concrete floors for maintenance.
-I’m mechanically included and loooove a good diy, so I would consider this part of the hobby and not a roadblock build.
-cheap to replace and easy to drain and reconfigure as needed
-keep noise out of display area and isolate in another room.
-no compromises with config. I can put in any skimmer I want. I can have a huge fuge. I can dsb (although I don’t think that I want to). I can swap the macro out and build a cryptic zone instead.

I hope I’m not coming off as contrarian. I’m not trying to staunchly defend my position on this. Just letting you inside my thought process. I wanted to make sure that I had at least handled the basics before I went off and asked the pros for their opinions lol lol