N and P development when black out, with and without dinoflagelates

[JonasRoman]

Let me present my straightforward investigation regarding dinoflagellates' consumption of phosphate. The origin of my experiment comes from observations made after controlling dinoflagellates using UV-C light and darkness, which resulted in a notable increase in phosphate levels. The surface area of the dinoflagellates was not much, approximately 10×10 cm. This led me to realize that dinoflagellates rapidly and extensively consume phosphate, and perhaps this explains why we often observe such low phosphate (P) concentrations in the presence of dinoflagellates, rather than the low phosphate levels being a cause of dinoflagellate proliferation.
When my aquarium was free of dinoflagellates, I redid the black out test to exclude the possibility that phosphate increases were due to the absence of photosynthesis. During three days of darkness, now in the absence of dinoflagellates, phosphate levels did not significantly increase!
My conclusion is that the phosphate elevation was due to the release of phosphate from dinoflagellates, thereby demonstrating that dinoflagellates assimilate phosphate in considerable quantities and probably quite rapidly (we all know how quickly dinoflagellates can proliferate).

The tables display my measurements before and after dark conditions, both when dinoflagellates were present and when they were absent.

Sincerely,
Jonas

 

[MnFish1]

I think there may be a correlation, I'm not sure you proved causation.

 

[CHSUB]

Any fast growing algae or bacteria is going to require po4. Dinoflagellate have the ability to consume other organisms hence they ability to survive in nutrient poor conditions, however the idea that low nutrients levels that just coincidentally happen to read 0 on hobby test kits is the “sweet spot” for them to bloom and outcompete other tank algae is completely fodder…

 

[EnterName]

Very cool idea!

I have some questions about your methodology. Please don't take them as criticism! I'm really interested in this topic and just trying to find out what could be further improved to check if you are really onto something here.

1. How did you ensure that the same amount of nutrients were introduced during the first and second experiment? I personally "eyeball" the amount of food I add to my tank so sometimes this increases phosphate a bit more, and sometimes a bit less.

2. I've read that especially shortly after adding frozen food phosphate levels are increased. Did you take the measurements at the same time between feedings to ensure this isn't just some temporary nutrient peak?

3. Were typical phosphate consumers such as corals and macro algae present and of approximately the same size? And were fish or other animals added between the experiment? The nutrient consumption differs significantly when I just trimmed down my macro algae vs when it's already filling my refugium, and of course another fish would cause higher nutrient levels.

4. How old/established was the tank during the experiments? There is so much going on in a tank from a microbiological perspective and your findings might say just as much about the organism that replaced the dinos.

 

[JonasRoman]

Very cool idea!

I have some questions about your methodology. Please don't take them as criticism! I'm really interested in this topic and just trying to find out what could be further improved to check if you are really onto something here.

1. How did you ensure that the same amount of nutrients were introduced during the first and second experiment? I personally "eyeball" the amount of food I add to my tank so sometimes this increases phosphate a bit more, and sometimes a bit less.

2. I've read that especially shortly after adding frozen food phosphate levels are increased. Did you take the measurements at the same time between feedings to ensure this isn't just some temporary nutrient peak?

3. Were typical phosphate consumers such as corals and macro algae present and of approximately the same size? And were fish or other animals added between the experiment? The nutrient consumption differs significantly when I just trimmed down my macro algae vs when it's already filling my refugium, and of course another fish would cause higher nutrient levels.

4. How old/established was the tank during the experiments? There is so much going on in a tank from a microbiological perspective and your findings might say just as much about the organism that replaced the dinos.

Hi, thanks for questions, its good:-)

let me try answer them one by one
1) The food input is same in both tests. No coral feeding, just approx same amount of pellets feeding (once a day as it was dark, I removed the darkness 5 min, gave them some food, did same in both tests)
2) Did not use froozen food these 2 tests. (you are right about froozen food, I did a test of that, have a separate thread here created by me based on some tests)
3) yes, as it was just a few days between the 2 tests, and did not remove algue between
4) 1.5 year, very stable tank. No dosing of anything (no carbon, no bacteria)

/Jonas

 

[sixty_reefer]

This experience observations seem fairly plausible to me and it goes in line with what many aquarists observe.
Possibly why many aquarists can shake them of by just overdosing phosphate, making them available to more organisms that become limited in P to compete for space.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Let me present my straightforward investigation regarding dinoflagellates' consumption of phosphate. The origin of my experiment comes from observations made after controlling dinoflagellates using UV-C light and darkness, which resulted in a notable increase in phosphate levels. The surface area of the dinoflagellates was not much, approximately 10×10 cm. This led me to realize that dinoflagellates rapidly and extensively consume phosphate, and perhaps this explains why we often observe such low phosphate (P) concentrations in the presence of dinoflagellates, rather than the low phosphate levels being a cause of dinoflagellate proliferation.
When my aquarium was free of dinoflagellates, I redid the black out test to exclude the possibility that phosphate increases were due to the absence of photosynthesis. During three days of darkness, now in the absence of dinoflagellates, phosphate levels did not significantly increase!
My conclusion is that the phosphate elevation was due to the release of phosphate from dinoflagellates, thereby demonstrating that dinoflagellates assimilate phosphate in considerable quantities and probably quite rapidly (we all know how quickly dinoflagellates can proliferate).

The tables display my measurements before and after dark conditions, both when dinoflagellates were present and when they were absent.

Sincerely,
Jonas

A different interpretation is merely that dead organisms release phosphate, without any bearing on whether they thrive or not under low nutrients.

 

[Jimmy Smits IV]

I would love to see this line of research continued. My own experience with Dinos is that I have had dinos with undetectable nutrients, and I have had dinos with very elevated nutrients, so I do not follow the line of thinking that low nutrients cause dinos. But I am very much wanting to see some actual scientific testing put into Dinos given how much of a nuisance they are.

 

[MikeReefs]

I would agree with this but everyone’s situation having a Dino infestation is different. When I battled with small cell Dino’s my phosphate was extremely high and my nitrates were bottomed out. What I believe caused my emergence was excessive water changes and as a result staving bacteria. Using dry rocks also played a huge part in enabling the Dino’s to take over. They didn’t have much competition to the extreme lack of microorganisms. The way I beat them was to outcompete them using AF lifesource and a combination of bacteria. I personally do not believe phosphate levels are the direct cause but either N or P bottoming out is more of the cause do to starvation of its competition and the fact that Dino’s thrive and very low nutrient environments

 

[sixty_reefer]

I would love to see this line of research continued. My own experience with Dinos is that I have had dinos with undetectable nutrients, and I have had dinos with very elevated nutrients, so I do not follow the line of thinking that low nutrients cause dinos. But I am very much wanting to see some actual scientific testing put into Dinos given how much of a nuisance they are.

In my opinion the Key to understanding dinoflagellates blooms in aquaria is in the balance of Dissolved organic carbon in relation to N and P.
If depleted we do have them blooming in high N and P and if in excess, we have them blooming in depleted N and P.

 

[JonasRoman]

A different interpretation is merely that dead organisms release phosphate, without any bearing on whether they thrive or not under low nutrients.

Exact. But what I showed in my tests was that 100 cm2 dino contains 50 mg po4. So its not strange that we read 0 in po4 when we have dino. It consumes po4 better than the best GFO.
I have seen several situations where dino comes when p is not zero , but after a while when dino is excessive in tank it zeroes the P.
So the findings that dino absorb so much P fast and easy make me believe its not low P itself that trigger dino but more a general unbalance in the microflora.
Low P is a risc factor as competitives have hard to survive in low P where dino hasnt, but it requires more than just low P I believe. And I also think dosing P when having dino is not always a good choice.
Also, when dino finaly dies (whatever method you use to achieve that) N and P will temporarily raise significant, so a previous dosing then of P is not welcome in that situation.

 

[JonasRoman]

In my opinion the Key to understanding dinoflagellates blooms in aquaria is in the balance of Dissolved organic carbon in relation to N and P.
If depleted we do have them blooming in high N and P and if in excess, we have them blooming in depleted N and P.

Yes. Like cyano I believe there is data that speaks for that high organic load may be a risc factor. Not sure where I have red this but will see if i can find it.

 

[sixty_reefer]

Yes. Like cyano I believe there is data that speaks for that high organic load may be a risc factor. Not sure where I have red this but will see if i can find it.

I wasn’t referring to organic matter build up, you are right there as there is many connections from those build ups to Cyanobacteria and other nuisances.
I was referring to dissolved organic carbon (carbohydrates) that may affect some single cell zooplanktons pathways in our reefs that require the availability of DOC, Nitrate and Phosphate to sustain their populations, in the absence of any of the 3 nutrients their populations usually decrease leaving space for other organisms to grow.

In all my years in reef aquaria, I’ve never encountered anyone having dinoflagellates problems wile carbon dosing and I believe i won’t ever see it happen.

 

[JonasRoman]

I wasn’t referring to organic matter build up, you are right there as there is many connections from those build ups to Cyanobacteria and other nuisances.
I was referring to dissolved organic carbon (carbohydrates) that may affect some single cell zooplanktons pathways in our reefs that require the availability of DOC, Nitrate and Phosphate to sustain their populations, in the absence of any of the 3 nutrients their populations usually decrease leaving space for other organisms to grow.

In all my years in reef aquaria, I’ve never encountered anyone having dinoflagellates problems wile carbon dosing and I believe i won’t ever see it happen.

Understand. Very interesting point that lack of carbohydrates (easy accessible carbohydrates) is leading to decreasing of zooplancton, and zooplancton in turn is a good competitor to dino. Do I understand you correct? I like that theory

 

[sixty_reefer]

Understand. Very interesting point that lack of carbohydrates (easy accessible carbohydrates) is leading to decreasing of zooplancton, and zooplancton in turn is a good competitor to dino. Do I understand you correct? I like that theory

Along those lines, there are multiple biological pathways affected by nutrients that create an overall imbalance that allows certain nuisances to take place.
The bottom line being a tank out of balance that creates the opportunity.

 

[mcarroll]

I'm not sure I follow this 100% but I'm pretty sure you're misinterpreting what's going on by forgetting two things:
1) bacteria's role in decomposition
2) that Dino's don't just disappear, they die and become detritus (see #1)

The following article explains in good detail what happens to nutrients during/after a bloom:
The role of nutrients in decomposition of a thecate dinoflagellate

Remember this is a eutrophication event where things have gone out of balance – phosphate has crashed, usually along with ntirate. (Putting the N in dinoflagellates is a great companion to the article above.)

Bacterial action is the only thing that can take N&P levels as low as we see them go. (In an environment other than a reef tank, this process of collapsing resource levels could continue and collapse dissolved O2 levels as well. Wish dO2 monitoring was more common in the hobby.)

 

[sixty_reefer]

I'm not sure I follow this 100% but I'm pretty sure you're misinterpreting what's going on by forgetting two things:
1) bacteria's role in decomposition
2) that Dino's don't just disappear, they die and become detritus (see #1)

The following article explains in good detail what happens to nutrients during/after a bloom:
The role of nutrients in decomposition of a thecate dinoflagellate

Remember this is a eutrophication event where things have gone out of balance – phosphate has crashed, usually along with ntirate. (Putting the N in dinoflagellates is a great companion to the article above.)

Bacterial action is the only thing that can take N&P levels as low as we see them go. (In an environment other than a reef tank, this process of collapsing resource levels could continue and collapse dissolved O2 levels as well. Wish dO2 monitoring was more common in the hobby.)

In summary, it’s your belief that the sugars stored by dinoflagellates could be one of the culprits in lowering nutrient once the dinoflagellates die?
wend vibrant was popular to kill algae’s in tanks I remember folks having a lot of issues after due to low nutrient. Most likely due to the sugars released into the water column after killing vasts amounts of algae.

 

[Dan_P]

Let me present my straightforward investigation regarding dinoflagellates' consumption of phosphate. The origin of my experiment comes from observations made after controlling dinoflagellates using UV-C light and darkness, which resulted in a notable increase in phosphate levels. The surface area of the dinoflagellates was not much, approximately 10×10 cm. This led me to realize that dinoflagellates rapidly and extensively consume phosphate, and perhaps this explains why we often observe such low phosphate (P) concentrations in the presence of dinoflagellates, rather than the low phosphate levels being a cause of dinoflagellate proliferation.
When my aquarium was free of dinoflagellates, I redid the black out test to exclude the possibility that phosphate increases were due to the absence of photosynthesis. During three days of darkness, now in the absence of dinoflagellates, phosphate levels did not significantly increase!
My conclusion is that the phosphate elevation was due to the release of phosphate from dinoflagellates, thereby demonstrating that dinoflagellates assimilate phosphate in considerable quantities and probably quite rapidly (we all know how quickly dinoflagellates can proliferate).

The tables display my measurements before and after dark conditions, both when dinoflagellates were present and when they were absent.

Sincerely,
Jonas

An enjoyable report to read!

Did you perform a “sanity” check?

How many mg of phosphate does the increase in phosphate represent? Divide that amount by the number of dinoflagellates in a 10x10 cm patch. How does this number correspond to literature value for luxury storage of phosphate per dinoflagellate cell?

A cleaner experiment would have been to vacuum up the patch, then subject it and another vacuumed up 10x10 cm patch not containing dinoflagellate to a black out.

The trouble with whole aquarium experiments is the lack of a control and just too many variables anyway. You observed an intriguing change in phosphate that failed to occur when dinoflagellates were not visible. This observation fails to account for the other organisms in the dinoflagellate’s phytosphere that are negatively affected by their demise. A more measured inference from your observation would have been that the disruption of the dinoflagellate phytosphere resulted in a phosphate increase. There really isn’t enough data to say where the PO4 came from.

Looking forwards to future observations and studies.

Dan

 

[mcarroll]

Nutrient consumption by bacteria doesn't seem to be accounted for....did I miss something?

Suppose we have 1,000,000 dino cells in a boom, then we can figure on having 100-500 dead cells also in the water....plus more gravitating into the sand bed. Those dead cells all have a fate that is relevant to the question.

Think along the lines of composting for your garden....with bacteria utilizing all available N&P in breaking down those complex carbon molecules. Newspaper and straw are considered some of the strongest carbon sources for composting.

Dino theca are an order of magnitude stronger carbon source. However, dinos cannot use N & P down to the levels bacteria can which is what we see during full scale dino blooms.

Also, just having dino's in a tank is not equal to having a full on dino bloom, BTW. Dino's are fine and reef friendly on their own. Dino blooms, on the other hand, are killers. (Talking about the same dino species in either case.)

Just finding dino's in your tank has no significance. It's normal. There's no treatment for "normal". (...but I know some folks would use it if there was!! )

 

[Bear22]

Ahhhhh, the dinos hamster cage lives on...