Natural vs Unnatural Methods

[EricR]

Herbivores controlling algae- natural (how I prefer to handle algae)

Targeted chemical treatments (hydrogen peroxide) and algaecides, likely much less natural

Good one.

Manually removing algae from tank by hand -- hmmm.
Guess I'm leaning towards unnatural on that one (in context of original question, that is).

 

[MBruun]

I add live phytoplankton and rotifiers 24x7 from my continuos cultures, in the belive that it contributes to a more natural way of running my reef tank

 

[Eagle_Steve]

Good one.

Manually removing algae from tank by hand -- hmmm.
Guess I'm leaning towards unnatural on that one (in context of original question, that is).

Manual removal could be considered natural, other mammals in the sea remove it via eating, rubbing, etc. Heck, hard wave crashes can also remove it lol.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Targeted chemical treatments (hydrogen peroxide) and algaecides, likely much less natural

Which is what I want to discuss here. Hydrogen peroxide reacting with all sorts of things, even inside organisms, is natural. Algaecides such as Algaefix definitely are not.

 

[EricR]

Manual removal could be considered natural, other mammals in the sea remove it via eating, rubbing, etc. Heck, hard wave crashes can also remove it lol.

Except that I don't reintroduce resulting nutrients to the tank after I eat and digest the aforementioned algae,,, doh!

Sorry,,, shutting up now since I'm sure this isn't the intended path

 

[Eagle_Steve]

Except that I don't reintroduce resulting nutrients to the tank after I eat and digest the aforementioned algae,,, doh!

Sorry,,, shutting up now since I'm sure this isn't the intended path

Think of it like this, cormorants take algae from the water to provide some cushion in their nests lol.

 

[sixty_reefer]

Except that I don't reintroduce resulting nutrients to the tank after I eat and digest the aforementioned algae,,, doh!

Sorry,,, shutting up now since I'm sure this isn't the intended path

The nutrients caused via the digestive system of the fish or invertebrates that eats the algae will feed zooplankton and microbes, I believe it may still be considered a natural pathway

 

[Miami Reef]

@Randy Holmes-Farley

I am a big fan and follower of yours. I often remember little things you say and I can easily go back and track them.

Here is your quote in this thread:

Metabolism of organic anions to release alkalinity such as acetate and formate (natural metabolism)

But here’s a quote from a few months ago:

There's no inherent reason why dosing formate (as in All for reef) would be OK, as it is rather unnatural for a reef setting, but the experience of many reefers suggest it is.

Is All-for-reef good for new tanks?

My tank is almost 5 months old. I have some softies (zoas, GSP, mushrooms) and LPS (hammer, frammer, Duncan, candy canes, chalice, favias). I was dosing BRS Soda Ash daily with a pump to keep my alk around 7.5-8, and dosed a few times manually BRS Calcium to try to keep it around 430. I bought...

www.reef2reef.com

So is it natural or not? lol

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Except that I don't reintroduce resulting nutrients to the tank after I eat and digest the aforementioned algae,,, doh!

Sorry,,, shutting up now since I'm sure this isn't the intended path

Yes, this is the sort of discussion needed!

FWIW, I’ve seen beaches so covered in seaweed after a storm that one couldn’t get to the water. Mother Natures manual removal.

 

[MnFish1]

A lot of folks comment on whether processes of various sorts that we use in reef tanks are natural or unnatural. I thought it would be interesting to start a discussion of the topic, ignoring the obvious issue of whether natural or unnatural is “better”.

Folks may find some of the answers surprising (e.g., lanthanum for phosphate binding being natural).

For purposes of this thread, I’m defining a method as natural if it happens in the ocean, regardless of whether the extent that it happens is the same, whereas an unnatural process is not something that happens in the ocean.

There are some borderline cases that we can also discuss, such as GAC.

I’ll keep adding to this post as we go forward with an expanding summary. It is too much too add all at once.

Feel free to chime in with ideas and methods to discuss!

Processes with natural equivalents

CaCO3/CO2 reactors (low pH dissolution of calcium carbonate)

Dosing of calcium solutions (rivers, underwater vents, runoff)

Dosing of inorganic alkalinity solutions (rivers, vents, runoff)

Metabolism of organic anions to release alkalinity such as acetate and formate (natural metabolism)


Processes with similar but chemically different natural processes

Polymeric binders such as polyfilter, Purigen or metasorb. Natural organics perform similar functions, but these materials do not exist in the natural ocean.

It's an interesting question. For example - One would normally classify a product such as chemiclean as 'not natural' - (assuming it contains some version of erythromycin). However - Erythromycin was originally isolated from soil in the phillipines, produced by bacteria. So - are there some local bacteria in some tanks/the ocean that produce erythromycin (which works well in alkaline environments) that helps limit cyanobacteria in nature? IDK.

 

[anthonymckay]

Removing all of the skim material doesn’t sound natural to me. I don’t have a skimmer but I’m debating on getting one. I don’t have a problem with keeping No3 low but phosphate is something that I need to get under control.

You ever seen a bunch of brownish foam on the beach? What do you think that is?... (Which is why I get so grossed out when I see people playing it, haha)

 

[CoralClasher]

You ever seen a bunch of brownish foam on the beach? What do you think that is?... (Which is why I get so grossed out when I see people playing it, haha)

Wouldn’t rain wash it back into the ocean? So not completely removed.

 

[mbmartin06]

It seems to me that many of our additives to the tank like 2/3 part are based in part at least in natural processes. It’s removal that seems more unnatural. Lots of people uses socks/floss which I am having a hard time thinking of a way this happens nature. I suppose places like a kelp forest may do this??? but that’s similar to a packed refugium. Just sorta thinking as I type sorry.

 

[Eagle_Steve]

It seems to me that many of our additives to the tank like 2/3 part are based in part at least in natural processes. It’s removal that seems more unnatural. Lots of people uses socks/floss which I am having a hard time thinking of a way this happens nature. I suppose places like a kelp forest may do this??? but that’s similar to a packed refugium. Just sorta thinking as I type sorry.

Naw, that is a good thought.

But you could look at it like a low tide. For example, mangroves will "mechanically" remove some things via the roots and other things "filtering" the water when the tide recedes. From there, other critters eat what is left or it speeds up the decomposition process. Then when water returns, some is missing and some can now decompose quicker and be taken in by other organisms. Or even "foamed" up on a beach. Same applies to the macros that are there, they "catch" things like a filter sock does and things eat that stuff.

Granted, we taking the last bit out of the equation, or are we? You rinse a filter sock out and that goes down the drain. Either the septic tank bacteria eat it, it leeches to where plats eat it or the bacteria at the sewage plant eats it.

Just throwing things out here, as this conf call is super boring lol.

 

[Miami Reef]

It seems to me that many of our additives to the tank like 2/3 part are based in part at least in natural processes. It’s removal that seems more unnatural. Lots of people uses socks/floss which I am having a hard time thinking of a way this happens nature. I suppose places like a kelp forest may do this??? but that’s similar to a packed refugium. Just sorta thinking as I type sorry.

Does nature have overstocked small tanks? Do our tanks have a vast recycling ecosystem that recycles nutrients effectively without any external help?

A tank cannot compare to the size and complexity of the real ocean.

A tank with more input that output will eventually catch up and the neglect will show. Not everything needs to be “natural” because reef keeping in and of itself is not natural.

 

[Miami Reef]

@Randy Holmes-Farley

I am a big fan and follower of yours. I often remember little things you say and I can easily go back and track them.

Here is your quote in this thread:





But here’s a quote from a few months ago:

Is All-for-reef good for new tanks?

My tank is almost 5 months old. I have some softies (zoas, GSP, mushrooms) and LPS (hammer, frammer, Duncan, candy canes, chalice, favias). I was dosing BRS Soda Ash daily with a pump to keep my alk around 7.5-8, and dosed a few times manually BRS Calcium to try to keep it around 430. I bought...

www.reef2reef.com

So is it natural or not? lol

@Randy Holmes-Farley Did you see this response I made to you?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

@Randy Holmes-Farley Did you see this response I made to you?

Yes, I did say it was “rather unnatural” and said it was natural here. It points out the complexity of an either/or determination for something that does happen in nature but happens to a far greater extent when used in a reef tank. Formate fits that description, as would some other processes we use, such as GAC, which is an even more extreme example.

So the answer depends on what you mean by natural, and that’s why I defined it in the first post of this thread for use in this thread.

 

[mbmartin06]

Does nature have overstocked small tanks? Do our tanks have a vast recycling ecosystem that recycles nutrients effectively without any external help?

A tank cannot compare to the size and complexity of the real ocean.

A tank with more input that output will eventually catch up and the neglect will show. Not everything needs to be “natural” because reef keeping in and of itself is not natural.

I agree but is it natural. I dont know.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Another calcium supplement is completely unnatural, IMO, and that is Seachem Calcium based on polygluconate. I do not think high molecular weight polygluconate occurs in the ocean in nature

 

[anthonymckay]

Wouldn’t rain wash it back into the ocean? So not completely removed.

Dump a little back into your sump if it makes you feel better. Then pretend you're the wind blowing the rest away as you dump it down a drain, haha