Natural vs Unnatural Methods

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Really, really unnatural: placing organisms in a glass box. Trumps anything you have identified so far in “unnaturalness”

True. Even tide pools aren’t enclosed in glass, but they are enclosed, sometimes by choice and sometimes by accident, and some tide pools are nicer than some tanks. lol

 

[mbmartin06]

True. Even tide pools aren’t enclosed in glass, but they are enclosed, sometimes by choice and sometimes by accident, and some tide pools are nicer than some tanks. lol

Seem like almost everything is unnaturally natural no? Ha.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Seem like almost everything is unnaturally natural no? Ha.

To some extent, but some of the methods we use are huge and important natural processes, such as the dissolution of CaCO3 at low pH (in sediments), adding calcium and alkalinity in other ways, growing macroalgae, dosing iron, etc.

 

[mbmartin06]

To some extent, but some of the methods we use are huge and important natural processes, such as the dissolution of CaCO3 at low pH (in sediments), adding calcium and alkalinity in other ways, growing macroalgae, dosing iron, etc.

I agree but the processes (maybe not all) we use to create these natural reactions/outcomes is unnatural in the sea.

I am not a scientist by any stretch so I’m trying to visualize this. You had referenced hydrogen peroxide as natural but are there mechanisms where actual hydrogen peroxide is released into the sea and then dispersed or is using this an unnatural way of creating natural “things”. (Obviously we need the benefits provided by dosing various things.)

I hope this doesn’t sound argumentative. I’m trying to learn and this is all very interesting to me.

 

[Privateye]

This is an excellent thread! So many things I want to say but I'll just leave one for now:

Fish are an important part of the calcium carbonate cycle too. It's estimated that they contribute about 15% of the ocean's carbonate. Some comes from food (e.g. bones for calcium) but a lot comes from drinking water and excreting the ions. So it's not so much of a source as a cycle. I read a paper years ago that highlighted how soluble it was but I forget which and I don't have journal access any longer.

 

[MnFish1]

I cannot say with certainty, but I expect erythromycin should be considered unnatural in the ocean since I doubt it is made by marine bacteria in amounts sufficient to have an antimicrobial effect. Too much rapid dilution to make it a good plan, IMO.

I certainly could be wrong on that, however.

Yes - It would have to be an extremely localized phenomenon

 

[Hans-Werner]

What is rarely thought about is the surface to volume ratio which is highly unnatural in most tanks. A coral reef usually has a water column of 2 m or more above ground and no glass panes which add surfaces. Processes on surfaces are different from processes in open water.

Many processes including substances already mentioned mainly take place on surfaces, i. e. bacterial and algal growth etc.. These are the places where substances like erythromycin or vitamins are active: Antibiotics in fact are substances excreted by microorganisms in struggle for space and nutrients. So, somewhere there must be active concentrations. It is on surfaces, in biofilms in the micrometer range around the organisms excreting these antibiotics.

Similar with vitamins: Several vitamins are produced by bacteria and algae. Other algae or algal development stages need vitamins they can't produce themselves. They need certain biofilms producing vitamins for development. These biofilms for their part may need certain organic substances for growth, certain biopolymers for example which may be excreted by the partner needing the vitamins.

I have observed certain macroalgal stages that usually are not observed in aquaria like gametophytes of Asparagopsis or sporophytes of Halimeda. Did the addition of biopolymers make their development possible or does it also take place in other aquaria without ever getting noticed? (But the gametophyte of Asparagopsis is hard to miss )

Most of these processes are surface related and don't take place in open water. Surfaces and surface related biofilms are like catalysts of processes, so the surface to volume ratio really matters.

 

[seamonster]

In reality, an aquarium is an artificial system, doesn’t matter what methods we use, water changes, skimming, avoiding chemical filtration and relying on mechanical and biological filtration are all natural methods. Using natural sunlight to light our tanks, feeding natural foods and no flakes, pellets or any other processed food are all natural methods too. No qt, no pest control and not caring if corals are growing into each other is natural too. However, it is impossible to maintain a tank without using artificial means to compensate. Because, an aquarium is an artificial system.

 

[pomoev]

Feeding mysis is profoundly unnatural

 

[Stigigemla]

In the large scale an Aquarium is unnatural. But if You look more careful in it nature tries to take over.
Fishes show some parts of their natural behavior. Different algae are coming from "nowhere" and we get a lot of different bacteria.
To me only a part of the tank is artificial. Cyano is natural as well as many other organisms we usually don´t pay much attention to. The nitrogen cycle is natural.

 

[Scottrshoe]

On phosphate binders, I’d make these assertions:

Natural
Aluminum oxide
Ferric oxide (GFO)
Calcium carbonate/calcium phosphate
Lanthanum ion
iron ions

Unnatural

Polymers like a polyfilter (ignoring the fact that I do not believe it binds inorganic P, but it claims to do it’s on the list)

An interesting note (not reef related) In healthcare, when a person has renal failure, phosphorus regulation is reduced or non-existant. These patients are often prescibed TUMS (which is basically Calcium Carbonate) as a less expensive option for phosphorus binders. Taken with meals, it greatly helps to reduce the amount of phosporus build up in the body.

This is a great topic, that I am enjoying reading the discussion and learning a lot!
OK, sorry for the digression....back to the regularly scheduled programming

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

An interesting note (not reef related) In healthcare, when a person has renal failure, phosphorus regulation is reduced or non-existant. These patients are often prescibed TUMS (which is basically Calcium Carbonate) as a less expensive option for phosphorus binders. Taken with meals, it greatly helps to reduce the amount of phosporus build up in the body.

OK, sorry for the digression....back to the regularly scheduled programming

No worry about digression. This is my favorite area of healthcare since it relates to my best professional accomplishment: being a co-inventor of a couple of treatments for hyperphosphatemia for renal failure patients (Renagel (sevelamer hydrochloride) and Renvela (sevelamer carbonate)).

Both are notably unnatural organic polymers designed to bind phosphate from food before it can be taken up, just like the tums, but without the added problem of the excessive calcium.

The reason calcium carbonate and calcium acetate are not optimal for this purpose is that one of the main problems with excessive serum phosphate is precipitation of calcium phosphate in the body in places it should not be (arteries, joints, eyes, etc.).

 

[Paul B]

As my tank gets older I try more and more to keep it as natural as I can. I collect my water right at the surf and do little to it except strain out the floating debris and fine mud so I can have a clear tank.

(I did use ASW for about 40 years)

I try to feed only foods from the sea like clams but I do use white worms occasionally because I can't collect enough salt water worms.

I take mud and seaweed from a bay and throw it in for bacteria. Never from a bottle.

When I started my tank I took rocks from the sea as live rock was not available then.

I use a reverse undergravel filter because I want oxygen all over the tank and under the gravel.

I never quarantine and feel parasites, bacteria, viruses etc. are natural and needed for tank health.

I try to collect live amphipods, worms etc. when I can for the gut bacteria which I feel almost totally controls fish immunity.

I add rust from iron nails for iron. (I know, not very scientific but the sea is loaded with iron and it gets eliminated in a tank if you have an algae scrubber as I do)

I use some ozone in my skimmer which I feel is natural as the sea is constantly bombarded by lightning.

I never use additives or medications of any type but I do add some calcium, alk and Epsom Salts for magnesium.

 

[Scottrshoe]

No worry about digression. This is my favorite area of healthcare since it relates to my best professional accomplishment: being a co-inventor of a couple of treatments for hyperphosphatemia for renal failure patients (Renagel (sevelamer hydrochloride) and Renvela (sevelamer carbonate)).

Both are notably unnatural organic polymers designed to bind phosphate from food before it can be taken up, just like the tums, but without the added problem of the excessive calcium.

The reason calcium carbonate and calcium acetate are not optimal for this purpose is that one of the main problems with excessive serum phosphate is precipitation of calcium phosphate in the body in places it should not be (arteries, joints, eyes, etc.).

That IS a great accomplshment! I deal with both of those binders on a daily basis.

Calciphylaxis? I have seen the results first hand, and in severe cases it is quite devisatating. Would love to converse more if you like, But I will not derail your thread further...lol

 

[Miami Reef]

No worry about digression. This is my favorite area of healthcare since it relates to my best professional accomplishment: being a co-inventor of a couple of treatments for hyperphosphatemia for renal failure patients (Renagel (sevelamer hydrochloride) and Renvela (sevelamer carbonate)).

Both are notably unnatural organic polymers designed to bind phosphate from food before it can be taken up, just like the tums, but without the added problem of the excessive calcium.

The reason calcium carbonate and calcium acetate are not optimal for this purpose is that one of the main problems with excessive serum phosphate is precipitation of calcium phosphate in the body in places it should not be (arteries, joints, eyes, etc.).

I remember you stated that one of your biggest competitors was with lanthanum to bind the phosphates.

Can you explain why lanthanum was not selected over your product?

 

[Scottrshoe]

As my tank gets older I try more and more to keep it as natural as I can. I collect my water right at the surf and do little to it except strain out the floating debris and fine mud so I can have a clear tank.

(I did use ASW for about 40 years)

I try to feed only foods from the sea like clams but I do use white worms occasionally because I can't collect enough salt water worms.

I take mud and seaweed from a bay and throw it in for bacteria. Never from a bottle.

When I started my tank I took rocks from the sea as live rock was not available then.

I use a reverse undergravel filter because I want oxygen all over the tank and under the gravel.

I never quarantine and feel parasites, bacteria, viruses etc. are natural and needed for tank health.

I try to collect live amphipods, worms etc. when I can for the gut bacteria which I feel almost totally controls fish immunity.

I add rust from iron nails for iron. (I know, not very scientific but the sea is loaded with iron and it gets eliminated in a tank if you have an algae scrubber as I do)

I use some ozone in my skimmer which I feel is natural as the sea is constantly bombarded by lightning.

I never use additives or medications of any type but I do add some calcium, alk and Epsom Salts for magnesium.

That is an awesome way to start/manage a reef tank. Many of us are inland dwellers and do not have those options available to us. And though you are correct about the diseases we fight in our tanks being natural in the Ocean, most of our tanks lack the mechanisms to deal with them.

A lot of our fish (and corals) come from aquacultured sources, and have perhaps never been exposed to the ocean. Much like the person who travels abroad getting sick from the water, many of the fish we keep are not equiped to deal with exposure to the many disease and parasites that exist in the ocean.

Even in the ocean, die off is quite common due to disease or infection, unfortunately, when that happens in our reefs it is more devistating and costly to the reef keeper, but the fact is, death is a natural part of the life cyle, and dead/decaying fish and corals help to feed the mechanisms that make the oceans thrive.

Not to say that sourcing a natural reef as your is not a good thing, and I commend you on your efforts.

It is simply not possible to duplicate, in out tiny reefs, all the resources and processes that take place in the ocean..all we can hope for is to do the best we can...IMHO

 

[Duncan62]

I find I use methods I have found to work and have no unwanted side effects.
The terms natural or unnatural rarely enter my mind.

We are trying to recreate a slice of an ecosystem that in many ways uses unlimited dilution and remote processing of byproducts created in one area in another area.

I kind of expect I am going to have to "cheat" in some ways to be successful. I just try to do it as little as possible.

So true. Although I want the closest to a natural system as I can realistically achieve, I would go to a chemical in order to save a system. Even a naturalist can take advantage of tech and modern meds to maintain health if all creatures involved.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I remember you stated that one of your biggest competitors was with lanthanum to bind the phosphates.

Can you explain why lanthanum was not selected over your product?

Well, firstly, lanthanum was developed by a different company for this indication.

Secondly, and possibly a concern or not, lanthanum is partly absorbed and gets into bone in place of some calcium. Whether that is a problem or not, I’m not sure.

The polymers I developed are confined to the gi tract, greatly reducing any possible side effects.

 

[taricha]

UV, natural.

UV in lights yes. But UV-C sterilizers use 254nm that I think doesn't get through the atmosphere.

Targeted chemical treatments (hydrogen peroxide) and algaecides, likely much less natural

You had referenced hydrogen peroxide as natural but are there mechanisms where actual hydrogen peroxide is released into the sea and then dispersed or is using this an unnatural way of creating natural “things”.

hydrogen peroxide can be produced in the ocean by photosynthetic organisms.

Production of extracellular superoxide and hydrogen peroxide by five marine species of harmful bloom-forming algae

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

That IS a great accomplshment! I deal with both of those binders on a daily basis.

Calciphylaxis? I have seen the results first hand, and in severe cases it is quite devisatating. Would love to converse more if you like, But I will not derail your thread further...lol

Thanks!