Natural vs Unnatural Methods

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

It's an interesting question. For example - One would normally classify a product such as chemiclean as 'not natural' - (assuming it contains some version of erythromycin). However - Erythromycin was originally isolated from soil in the phillipines, produced by bacteria. So - are there some local bacteria in some tanks/the ocean that produce erythromycin (which works well in alkaline environments) that helps limit cyanobacteria in nature? IDK.

I cannot say with certainty, but I expect erythromycin should be considered unnatural in the ocean since I doubt it is made by marine bacteria in amounts sufficient to have an antimicrobial effect. Too much rapid dilution to make it a good plan, IMO.

I certainly could be wrong on that, however.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

It seems to me that many of our additives to the tank like 2/3 part are based in part at least in natural processes. It’s removal that seems more unnatural. Lots of people uses socks/floss which I am having a hard time thinking of a way this happens nature. I suppose places like a kelp forest may do this??? but that’s similar to a packed refugium. Just sorta thinking as I type sorry.

Size based mechanical filtration is a complicated one. Reefers use filter pads of all sorts, and nature uses clams, sponges and other filter feeders.

is that a natural version of a roller mat? Not really.

 

[fish farmer]

Does nature have overstocked small tanks? Do our tanks have a vast recycling ecosystem that recycles nutrients effectively without any external help?

A tank cannot compare to the size and complexity of the real ocean.

A tank with more input that output will eventually catch up and the neglect will show. Not everything needs to be “natural” because reef keeping in and of itself is not natural.

I'm thinking the same with you.

The actual modelling of a reef ecosystem would be natural.

Are there actual mounds of seaweed being pushed up onto the beach in reef country? Sure I see loads of weeds when I'm on certain New England beaches, is the same nutrient pathway actually happening in the tropics? Isn't the available algae not really removed, only moved up the food chain?

Same with the frothy sea waves, sure it is like a skimmer...but my guess is this isn't a significant export/displacement of coral/fish poop. Wave/current movement I could see being a natural method of suspending wastes(food) to areas where it could be consumed.

Aren't the basics of reef biology massive water changes with lots of food items with low "polluting" nutrients?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Wouldn’t rain wash it back into the ocean? So not completely removed.

Agreed it’s not complete, but skimming isn’t either.

 

[MillennialReefer]

This is a great discussion! It had me thinking would having a reef aquarium with no filtration i.e. (skimmer, reactors, socks etc.) Only a display, heater, power heads and lights (could be sunlight). Relying only on filter feeders - clams, sponges, algae and dosing phyto with automated constant water changes measured to the milliliter (based on the system's waste production) be the most "natural" way of reefing?

The parameters for coral would be met with only the water changes - without supplemental dosing.
Perhaps the only unnatural part would be having an automated water change system...

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

A quick rundown to spur more conversation

Lugols for iodine. Grey area, but in this definition, natural. There is a tiny bit of I2 naturally in seawater.

Ozone, natural,

All organic carbon dosing schemes, including normal biopellets, natural.

UV, natural.

Hydrogen peroxide, natural.

Chemipure, unnatural.

Vitamins in the water. Not sure. Are there detectable levels of all of the typical additive vitamins dissolved in the water. Grey area.

Seachem prime. Who knows what it even is?

 

[Eagle_Steve]

Seachem prime. Who knows what it even is?

 

[fish farmer]

This is a great discussion! It had me thinking would having a reef aquarium with no filtration i.e. (skimmer, reactors, socks etc.) Only a display, heater, power heads and lights (could be sunlight). Relying only on filter feeders - clams, sponges, algae and dosing phyto with automated constant water changes measured to the milliliter (based on the system's waste production) be the most "natural" way of reefing?

The parameters for coral would be met with only the water changes - without supplemental dosing.
Perhaps the only unnatural part would be having an automated water change system...

Pretty much how some reef jars are run, except 100% water change.

 

[Eagle_Steve]

Vitamins in the water. Not sure. Are there detectable levels of all of the typical additive vitamins dissolved in the water. Grey area.

Ok, back to being serious lol.

I would think there are vitamins naturally present in the water. Think about all of the fruit and other vegetation that falls into the water naturally from storms, wind, or even just how the seeds roll.

For example, coconuts contain vitamins A, D, E, and K. Lots of them fall into the water, decay and never actually turn into a tree. Add in all of the other things and there has to be at least some amount available. If it makes its way around the water as a whole, who knows. At least locally, I would think some is present and able to be taken in by critters.

While I know this is not the whole list of vitamins, it is just an example.

 

[Eagle_Steve]

In addition to all the other stuff, what about lighting. What would be considered natural?

Would LED be that? It is not the sun.

Would T5 or Halide be natural? Neither are the sun, but one is somewhat close.

Would Halide, if noted as a yes, be natural with the addition of UV reducing items like most bulbs have?

Does natural apply to all blue tanks hitting corals collected at depths no deeper than 10m?

 

[Dan_P]

A lot of folks comment on whether processes of various sorts that we use in reef tanks are natural or unnatural. I thought it would be interesting to start a discussion of the topic, ignoring the obvious issue of whether natural or unnatural is “better”.

Folks may find some of the answers surprising (e.g., lanthanum for phosphate binding being natural).

For purposes of this thread, I’m defining a method as natural if it happens in the ocean, regardless of whether the extent that it happens is the same, whereas an unnatural process is not something that happens in the ocean.

There are some borderline cases that we can also discuss, such as GAC.

I’ll keep adding to this post as we go forward with an expanding summary. It is too much too add all at once.

Feel free to chime in with ideas and methods to discuss!

Processes with natural equivalents

CaCO3/CO2 reactors (low pH dissolution of calcium carbonate)

Dosing of calcium solutions (rivers, underwater vents, runoff)

Dosing of inorganic alkalinity solutions (rivers, vents, runoff)

Metabolism of organic anions to release alkalinity such as acetate and formate (natural metabolism)


Processes with similar but chemically different natural processes

Polymeric binders such as polyfilter, Purigen or metasorb. Natural organics perform similar functions, but these materials do not exist in the natural ocean.

Really, really unnatural: placing organisms in a glass box. Trumps anything you have identified so far in “unnaturalness”

 

[gbroadbridge]

A lot of folks comment on whether processes of various sorts that we use in reef tanks are natural or unnatural. I thought it would be interesting to start a discussion of the topic, ignoring the obvious issue of whether natural or unnatural is “better”.

Folks may find some of the answers surprising (e.g., lanthanum for phosphate binding being natural).

For purposes of this thread, I’m defining a method as natural if it happens in the ocean, regardless of whether the extent that it happens is the same, whereas an unnatural process is not something that happens in the ocean.

There are some borderline cases that we can also discuss, such as GAC.

I’ll keep adding to this post as we go forward with an expanding summary. It is too much too add all at once.

Feel free to chime in with ideas and methods to discuss!

Processes with natural equivalents

CaCO3/CO2 reactors (low pH dissolution of calcium carbonate)

Dosing of calcium solutions (rivers, underwater vents, runoff)

Dosing of inorganic alkalinity solutions (rivers, vents, runoff)

Metabolism of organic anions to release alkalinity such as acetate and formate (natural metabolism)


Processes with similar but chemically different natural processes

Polymeric binders such as polyfilter, Purigen or metasorb. Natural organics perform similar functions, but these materials do not exist in the natural ocean.

Is a glass box filled with salt water and creatures from the ocean natural?

 

[AydenLincoln]

You ever seen a bunch of brownish foam on the beach? What do you think that is?... (Which is why I get so grossed out when I see people playing it, haha)

Ewww fish poop/waste gross!!

 

[Eagle_Steve]

Ewww fish poop/waste gross!!

But it is like jumping into a marshmallow. All warm and fluffy when out in the sun for a bit.

 

[sixty_reefer]

Live rock, natural or unnatural? What we call live rock is often not a rock at all, it’s a dead coral skeleton that aids the filtration in enclosed systems. Are they part of a natural landscape? Doe a coral need a dead coral to be able to grow on in a natural landscape or it’s the ocean depending on it to maintain nutrients?
How about man made rock with purple paint that never seen the sea

 

[Eagle_Steve]

Live rock, natural or unnatural? What we call live rock is often not a rock at all, it’s a dead coral skeleton that aids the filtration in enclosed systems. Are they part of a natural landscape? Doe a coral need a dead coral to be able to grow on in a natural landscape.

Would this be natural?

Zoas growing on wave breaks made from mined coral skeleton/rock at a man made jetty.

 

[sixty_reefer]

Would this be natural?

Zoas growing on wave breaks made from mined coral skeleton/rock at a man made jetty.

The answer will depend on how you interpret mankind behaviour, we seem to call everything else in nature natural excluding what we do. Are we part of a ecosystem? It seems that everything we touch is called human
intervention instead of natural.

 

[Eagle_Steve]

The answer will depend on how you interpret mankind behaviour, we seem to call everything else in nature natural excluding what we do. Are we part of a ecosystem? It seems that everything we touch is called human
intervention instead of natural.

Very true.

I look at them like they naturally grew on an unnatural rock lol.

 

[sixty_reefer]

Defining natural and unnatural is fairly complicated, having fish and coral at home in theory could be considered natural from a external point of view, it could be seen as a symbiotic relationship between two species, I’m just not sure if it’s classified as parasitism or commensalism, the classification would depend on the success of keeping the other species alive.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

My rock was all natural, aside from being moved from the ocean to my tank. Even dead natural rock is natural since virtually any type of rock is in the ocean.

But cement rocks obviously are not, even though some are also in the ocean, it never occurs naturally.