Neptune APEX Reliability (Shocking in my experience!)

[robbyg]

yes. Then number of times the controller has saved my system makes it well worth it.

Are there really any products that have a zero failure rate? I find that hard to believe.

You really love that Zero failure rate argument even though we all know that's impossible!
What @Ecvernon is describing is equipment that has a super high failure rate. The exact opposite of what you want to have with a piece of life support equipment.

 

[User1]

You really love that Zero failure rate argument even though we all know that's impossible!
What @Ecvernon is describing is equipment that has a super high failure rate. The exact opposite of what you want to have with a piece of life support equipment.

There are 14 pages of this thread. Without a easy way to export it I do not know what the numbers show for those of us who haven't experienced tank failures or specific failures of apex compared those who have. And those that have enough to warrant an investment to change.

What I do know is this - Neptune wouldn't be in business if the reliability was as poor as described by some in the thread. Again, not to say there are no failures or to say those having them are over reaching, or what have you. What I'm saying is that Neptune is still in business, innovating products, updating some products, and appears to still be the leader in US based controller solutions.

There is a silent user base that we don't hear from be it Neptune or any other brand. Good, bad, or ugly (great movie btw) we just do not have the data to actually say reliability is an issue.

 

[Thales]

You really love that Zero failure rate argument even though we all know that's impossible!
What @Ecvernon is describing is equipment that has a super high failure rate. The exact opposite of what you want to have with a piece of life support equipment.

I think you missed what I was responding to.
Super high failure rate? What are you basing that on and what is super high?

 

[DJF]

I guess I could rationalize a 2k controller as worth it after one saved failure not costing me over 10k of livestock- that rationalization seems to keep reefers integrated by justifying piece meal replacements as a cost of the hobby. I think that’s a dangerous mindset that will keep chipping at your pocketbook and doesn’t hold the company to task and endorses their cheap manufacturing practices.

 

[robbyg]

Neptune customer for 15 years. I've tried them all, GHL, Neptune, DigitalAquatics (lol), etc.

GHL is not even remotely worth the cost premium over Neptune products. They have just as many issues with the modules and add on products (if not more so), you just never hear about it because they sell maybe 10% of the amount customers Neptune does. You're paying a premium for modern european looking housings, nothing more.

The KH Director, shining example here, it's a dang joke. There is no magic reason Neptune absolutely crushes every single competitor sales wise. It's just that the competition simply cannot compete from a value or quality standpoint.

Ecotech looks to be making a run at them now, can't wait to see what they have up their sleeves.

I have also tried most of them, but only for evaluation. I don't know how you can do long term testing on multiple models of controllers unless you also own an LFS and have lots of tank systems.

Your statement that "Neptune absolutely crushes every single competitor sales wise" is of course like Ford saying we crush every competitor! No! That is only in America which represents a small portion of this hobbies members. Have you ever notice how much big brand Aquarium equipment is made in Europe and how many of the designs and methods we use come out of Europe? There is a reason for that. As for your assertion that GHL has just as many problems, it is just not true! GHL has a small fraction of the issues that Neptune has. I would also suspect that the sales of GHL equipment is probably a lot higher than Neptune when Global sales are lumped in.

As for statement that the competitors cannot compete from a Value or Quality Standpoint, I suggest you remove those plastic covers off your Apex and look at the circuit boards inside and then compare them with a GHL unit and come back and tell us which one has better components and design.

The only reason that Neptune has been crushing every competitor in the US market is because they spend a lot of money on adevertising. They blanket every big aquarium forum and events like MACNA with adds. Also they have a very sweet deal with BRS to promote their products. Even on this forum or RC forum it is almost impossible to navigate a page without having an Apex advertisement staring you in the face.

 

[Thales]

I guess I could rationalize a 2k controller as worth it after one saved failure not costing me over 10k of livestock- that rationalization seems to keep reefers integrated by justifying piece meal replacements as a cost of the hobby. I think that’s a dangerous mindset that will keep chipping at your pocketbook and doesn’t hold the company to task and endorses their cheap manufacturing practices.

This is a luxury hobby, all of it is chipping at your pocketbook. I don’t think there is actually much in this hobby, (if there is anything at all) that doesn’t need replacement over time.
Again, I am pretty happy with their stuff and it’s cost. If a pm2 goes bad, it isn’t that expensive to change out. Pumps go bad, heaters go bad, lights go bad, livestock goes bad - it all can go bad.
None of these companies are under my control - they make what they make, and I would really hate to be in that side of the industry because you simply can’t win. When product is expensive people complain that it should be cheaper, when it is cheaper, people complain it should be better. I have used the expensive industrial versions of the apex commonly used at PA’s - not only do they also fail, they don’t do nearly as much as the hobby controllers.

 

[robbyg]

I think you missed what I was responding to.
Super high failure rate? What are you basing that on and what is super high?

Is it not self evident?

This is Super High:

"Since 2011 I've replaced the head unit 2x for various issues ex: pH probe problems, connectivity issues(I now have a spare)

EB8 2x- warranty failure, second time damage from moisture.

I generally only rely on the head unit or EB8's. Friends of mine have more robust systems with more products integrated and experience more failures."

In Eight years he has replaced two head units and two power bars. During that same period I have no such problems with my equipment. So yeah from one company having Zero failures to the other having four failures it's a "Super High" failure rate.

Bonus info, he says he friends have more Neptune equipment and they have more failures then him.

 

[Thales]

Apex is also big in the states because it is a us companu.y. That is a big deal to people for several reasons - for me it is important because trying to get out of country product support is often a nightmare.

 

[MnFish1]

The question I thought was is apex 'reliable' - not is it more or less reliable than other products. My opinion is that its not as reliable as I would want a 'controller' to be. Reliability doesnt just cover complete failures - it also is communication on this forum, its communicating product information deadlines, etc, its the manuals available for their products in case there is a problem, and it also of course encompasses 'failures', 'replacements', etc.

for example, I would call Mindstream 'unreliable' due to the delays in shipping their product - and poor communication - I would say that equally for Neptune and the Trident issue.

I wonder for example @Thales and others - what is the 'problem' or 'dissatisfaction' rate that you think you would need to call any company 'unreliable'?

 

[porter_painter]

The only reason that Neptune has been crushing every competitor in the US market is because they spend a lot of money on adevertising. They blanket every big aquarium forum and events like MACNA with adds. Also they have a very sweet deal with BRS to promote their products. Even on this forum or RC forum it is almost impossible to navigate a page without having an Apex advertisement staring you in the face.

Neptune also have a lot of Shills on forums to do their bidding for them...

 

[User1]

Neptune also have a lot of Shills on forums to do their bidding for them...

It is a forum. Hobbyist use different equipment. When a post is made about reliability, regardless of brand, people will post their experience.

No one in this thread can provide accurate data on the overall reliability. The fact that this keeps getting raised honestly makes no sense. It is just that hobbyists experience and it does not mean that others experience the same be it good or bad.

OP had a shocking experience - negative. Few others said they had similar. Few others said the opposite and it has been positive. So let me ask you where does that leave us?

 

[Thales]

I wonder for example @Thales and others - what is the 'problem' or 'dissatisfaction' rate that you think you would need to call any company 'unreliable'?

Dunno - that is one of my points in threads like this...we don't know what the 'problem' rate is. From the reading I do, it is far less of a problem than people like to make it, but that is my reading of the sites I visit. It is like shipping companies or cellular providers - people hate the one that gave them problems and love the one that didn't, but all of them are about the same if you pay attention long enough. UPS SUX! FEDEX SUX! DHL SUX! :D

I know the potentials for some problems with the APEX, so I take measures to head off those problems. IMO that makes more sense than trying to use aspects of the system that people report issues with. I have been doing the same with all aquarium equipment since the 1980's.

Since we have no actual data (I am not even willing to go through this thread and count), I suppose it comes down to people you know that give you info on the equipment you are interested in. I didn't trust controllers for a long long long time, and it was talking to people that I trust, that have tanks I want to emulate, that got me to start using them more. Forums are great for general information, but it is so easy for information that is not solid to appear solid, that I try to talk to people I actually know and take their reefkeeping seriously about products or methods that I am interested in so I can get the reality on the ground.

Side note - the people going in whole hog on the MSM at this point seem odd to me. The product is barely available and there is no real way to confirm the numbers...so it makes it hard for me to trust it (along with my personal experience). There is just no info yet to say much one way or the other - I hope that changes soon, because I like the idea and the form factor. :D

 

[Thales]

Neptune also have a lot of Shills on forums to do their bidding for them...

I don't think they are shills, I think they are people the like the product. Dismissing people that like the product as 'shills' is as weird as dismissing people who don't like the product simply as 'haters'. If we are all shills and haters there is no discussion to be had and no information to be shared.

 

[MnFish1]

Dunno - that is one of my points in threads like this...we don't know what the 'problem' rate is. From the reading I do, it is far less of a problem than people like to make it, but that is my reading of the sites I visit. It is like shipping companies or cellular providers - people hate the one that gave them problems and love the one that didn't, but all of them are about the same if you pay attention long enough. UPS SUX! FEDEX SUX! DHL SUX! :D

I know the potentials for some problems with the APEX, so I take measures to head off those problems. IMO that makes more sense than trying to use aspects of the system that people report issues with. I have been doing the same with all aquarium equipment since the 1980's.

Since we have no actual data (I am not even willing to go through this thread and count), I suppose it comes down to people you know that give you info on the equipment you are interested in. I didn't trust controllers for a long long long time, and it was talking to people that I trust, that have tanks I want to emulate, that got me to start using them more. Forums are great for general information, but it is so easy for information that is not solid to appear solid, that I try to talk to people I actually know and take their reefkeeping seriously about products or methods that I am interested in so I can get the reality on the ground.

Side note - the people going in whole hog on the MSM at this point seem odd to me. The product is barely available and there is no real way to confirm the numbers...so it makes it hard for me to trust it (along with my personal experience). There is just no info yet to say much one way or the other - I hope that changes soon, because I like the idea and the form factor. :D

What is MSM?

 

[DJF]

This is a luxury hobby, all of it is chipping at your pocketbook. I don’t think there is actually much in this hobby, (if there is anything at all) that doesn’t need replacement over time.
Again, I am pretty happy with their stuff and it’s cost. If a pm2 goes bad, it isn’t that expensive to change out. Pumps go bad, heaters go bad, lights go bad, livestock goes bad - it all can go bad.
None of these companies are under my control - they make what they make, and I would really hate to be in that side of the industry because you simply can’t win. When product is expensive people complain that it should be cheaper, when it is cheaper, people complain it should be better. I have used the expensive industrial versions of the apex commonly used at PA’s - not only do they also fail, they don’t do nearly as much as the hobby controllers.

I agree it is all a luxury and every person on this thread is blessed to have the time and resources to (vent or debate- not sure which) about these first world problems. That being said- agree to disagree on the idea that I should buy something with the understanding that it may fail and it’s just part of the luxury of this hobby to replace it. You do have a vote over a company’s direction- you vote with your pocketbook.

 

[smartwater101]

Sales don't equal quality. The Transformers movies made plenty of money :p

Its amazing watching people say they have had no issues and in the same breath talk about replacements and servicing they've needed. So what if replacing a power-bar or PM2 doesn't give someone a headache. For some it does, for some it doesn't. But the core topic here is whether or not the product is reliable enough to trust in the first place.

 

[User1]

But the core topic here is whether or not the product is reliable enough to trust in the first place.

My answer is yes. For me it has been. This goes back to 2000 when I used the Neptune with X10 relays and today with my Apex. I've also used a Reef Angel for 4 years, and using it now on a nano, and I trust it. Both products have reliable. I do not speak for anyone else who may own one of these products nor will I comment on GHL's or any other product that I've not used. If there was a vote, poll, or pulse this would be my vote and reply.

How was that? :D

Hope everyone's Sunday is going grand.

Edit: I know I have said this a few times now Smartwater101 - like the aquascape and layout. Makes me really wish I would have purchased a wider tank. 54" is nice and all and I enjoy the height and depth (30") but I think I could have laid out my rock a bit better. Hind sight is always 20/20 though and gives me an opportunity to upgrade in the future I guess.

 

[Thales]

I agree it is all a luxury and every person on this thread is blessed to have the time and resources to (vent or debate- not sure which) about these first world problems. That being said- agree to disagree on the idea that I should buy something with the understanding that it may fail and it’s just part of the luxury of this hobby to replace it. You do have a vote over a company’s direction- you vote with your pocketbook.

Sorry if I was unclear. If you don’t like/trust/want a product, don’t get it. Almost everything in this hobby will fail at some point and many of us prepare for that.

 

[smartwater101]

I know I have said this a few times now Smartwater101 - like the aquascape and layout. Makes me really wish I would have purchased a wider tank. 54" is nice and all and I enjoy the height and depth (30") but I think I could have laid out my rock a bit better. Hind sight is always 20/20 though and gives me an opportunity to upgrade in the future I guess.

Thanks man! This tank is actually being tore down as I type this. Taking a mini break while I design the upgrade and fishroom (closet lol.) Excited!

 

[porter_painter]

I don't think they are shills, I think they are people the like the product. Dismissing people that like the product as 'shills' is as weird as dismissing people who don't like the product simply as 'haters'. If we are all shills and haters there is no discussion to be had and no information to be shared.

I am not suggesting that some people do not like Neptune products. Perhaps you don't understand what a Shill is?

"A person who publicly helps or gives credibility to a person or organization without disclosing that they have a close relationship with the person or organization"

There certainly seem to be several people on this forum that are not just simple customers of Neptune that have only ever interacted at arms length. They have done beta testing of products, the are Neptune Insiders, etc...

That means those individuals are not independent