New “predator tank”

[Han]

After several months of deliberation I finally decided to set up a new tank for my radiata lionfish who hasn’t been playing nice with his tank mates in a 73 gallon tank (Red Sea reefer 350). I decided to go with the same tank, and after experiencing some setbacks due to an uneven floor it is finally set up and cycling. As it cycles, I want to start considering a tank mate for the lionfish. I do not want anything that is a very active swimmer or would possibly get stung (kept happening in the other tank).

I have been leaning towards some kind of eel, I’m open to all kinds but do not want a snowflake or ribbon (I have had/have these and want to try something different) The eel I have been considering the most is the jeweled moray. I would really like to try a fang toothed moray, and the jeweled seems like the perfect candidate for this tank from what I have read so far. My only concern is size, some sources say a minimum of 50 gallons is needed for a jeweled while other sources suggest a much larger tank. (This tank is 73 gallons). I would appreciate any feedback from anyone who has kept jeweled morays. I’m still open to other fish besides an eel, I just have a fascination with them, especially fang toothed morays. I also really like scorpion fish, although I will admit I get confused between species and am unsure whether it would be possible to keep one with a lionfish in a tank of this size.

I’m planning on adding some easy corals, mostly soft (leathers, zoas, gsp, etc). So no fish that would eat corals. Obviously since this tank is for a lionfish i am not concerned with whether or not I can keep inverts. I have an oversized skimmer (reef octopus classic 152-s) so I am not too concerned about having a large bio load, I am only planning on 1 fish besides the lion. I will be using chemi pure and those porous blocks in my sump (can’t remember the name) as well as 100 micron filter socks. I have a reactor I could always set up if needed as well.

Sorry for the long post, I have been thinking about/researching this tank for several months now and I’m pretty excited about it. Thanks in advance

 

[lion king]

I would recommend against the jeweled eel or any fang tooth in that sized tank. They really do get quite rambucteous when they mature, and a perching fish like a lion could be easy prey, spikes or not. Scorps are great fish you can find some of my post in reference to them as well. Here's my yellow fuzzy and rhinopias.

 

[Han]

I would recommend against the jeweled eel or any fang tooth in that sized tank. They really do get quite rambucteous when they mature, and a perching fish like a lion could be easy prey, spikes or not. Scorps are great fish you can find some of my post in reference to them as well. Here's my yellow fuzzy and rhinopias.

Yeah, that’s what I was worried about with a fang toothed moray. I guess I’ll have to wait on that one. I’ve thought about a golden dwarf moray but I really like the “deadly” fish. What kind of scorp do you think would be best suited for this tank? I’ve read all of your posts about them, but I’m still a bit unsure.

 

[Goodair]

where did you find a healthy lion?

 

[lion king]

Yeah, that’s what I was worried about with a fang toothed moray. I guess I’ll have to wait on that one. I’ve thought about a golden dwarf moray but I really like the “deadly” fish. What kind of scorp do you think would be best suited for this tank? I’ve read all of your posts about them, but I’m still a bit unsure.

Well the Rhino is the holy grail, within a few months mine won me over, now he hops up to me. I hold a live molly in my hand and he will hop to my hand stopping just short, and I let it out for him to catch. If you willing to plop down $350-450 this guy is a real show stopper. Here's the best write I have found on these guys. https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/rhinopias-scorpionfish-care.633562/

I stumbled on to this guy and he was a wonderful find, Scorpaenodes brasiliensis, he's a character(pic below). He's active and quite comical, if you could find one it would be a score, and very inexpensive.

The leaf scorpionfish seems to available quite often, many like them but I personally don't care for them. Their personality never grabbed me, but if you are interested, don't buy a red one. The red ones are high priced, even very high priced compared to the yellow ones; and they always(yeah always) turn yellow. So I'm not sure if the red thing is a maturity issue, a diet thing, or a camo thing; but they always go yellow. There's also a Hawaiian black one, which is actually more brown.

Give this guy a look at https://aqualocker.com/fish/scorpionfish/waspfish-paracentropogon-spp/

The skeletor eel may also be worth a look.

 

[Han]

where did you find a healthy lion?

My lfs ordered it for me

 

[Han]

Well the Rhino is the holy grail, within a few months mine won me over, now he hops up to me. I hold a live molly in my hand and he will hop to my hand stopping just short, and I let it out for him to catch. If you willing to plop down $350-450 this guy is a real show stopper. Here's the best write I have found on these guys. https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/rhinopias-scorpionfish-care.633562/

I stumbled on to this guy and he was a wonderful find, Scorpaenodes brasiliensis, he's a character(pic below). He's active and quite comical, if you could find one it would be a score, and very inexpensive.

The leaf scorpionfish seems to available quite often, many like them but I personally don't care for them. Their personality never grabbed me, but if you are interested, don't buy a red one. The red ones are high priced, even very high priced compared to the yellow ones; and they always(yeah always) turn yellow. So I'm not sure if the red thing is a maturity issue, a diet thing, or a camo thing; but they always go yellow. There's also a Hawaiian black one, which is actually more brown.

Give this guy a look at https://aqualocker.com/fish/scorpionfish/waspfish-paracentropogon-spp/

The skeletor eel may also be worth a look.

I really like the brasiliensis. That would get along fine with the radiata?
My lfs almost always has rhinos and leaf scorpionfish, but they’ve warned me that they can be difficult so I’m a little weary about them. Although they said the same about my ribbon eel and radiata so maybe it’s worth a shot. I don’t recall ever seeing a brasiliensis in person, but I’m sure my lfs could order one.

 

[lion king]

I think the difficulty with the rhino is, they likely will not do well long term on a dead only diet. Mine took to silversides quickly then refused them a few months later, now he only eats live fish. The leaf fish will not do well on a dead diet only either. The brasiliensis takes a variety of dead food quite easily, but I feed all my preds live food, so no one is on a dead only diet. The radiata also does not have a track record of doing well long term on a dead only diet.

 

[Han]

I think the difficulty with the rhino is, they likely will not do well long term on a dead only diet. Mine took to silversides quickly then refused them a few months later, now he only eats live fish. The leaf fish will not do well on a dead diet only either. The brasiliensis takes a variety of dead food quite easily, but I feed all my preds live food, so no one is on a dead only diet. The radiata also does not have a track record of doing well long term on a dead only diet.

I completely agree with your stance on feeding live and I try to feed live whenever I can, but I don’t have the time to breed ghosties or mollies so unfortunately my fish only end up with a live feeding 2 or 3 times a month (my lfs isn’t around the corner). When I do feed live I always gut load the food and when I feed dead I try to make it as varied as I can (silversides, krill, shrimp, clam, salmon flesh etc) and I always use selcon or vitachem. How does scorpaenodes carribbaeus compared to the brasiliensis? Carribbaeus seems somewhat easier to find.

 

[lion king]

Funny you ask that question, my brasil was misidentified as a carribaeus. I think they are very similar except the carribaeus is like the dwarf version of the brasil. Your lfs might find the carribaeus offered but might get the brasil. I didnt realize it untill he started grabbing mollies almost his own size, right out of the rhino's mouth. And ended up growing to over 5" in just a few months.

 

[Han]

Funny you ask that question, my brasil was misidentified as a carribaeus. I think they are very similar except the carribaeus is like the dwarf version of the brasil. Your lfs might find the carribaeus offered but might get the brasil. I didnt realize it untill he started grabbing mollies almost his own size, right out of the rhino's mouth. And ended up growing to over 5" in just a few months.

Huh, that must’ve been a cool surprise. Would the carribbaeus be small enough to get eaten by the radiata?

 

[lion king]

I don't think so, they are a broad bodied fish. The carribeaus would likely top out at 4", but they may arrive as small as 2". I sometimes wonder if the lions and scorps know not to eat each other. Theoretically my blackfoot could have eaten my yellow spot, and my rhino coulod have eaten my brasil. I wouldn't press my luck though. If you got one closer to the 4" mark I would think not.

 

[Han]

I don't think so, they are a broad bodied fish. The carribeaus would likely top out at 4", but they may arrive as small as 2". I sometimes wonder if the lions and scorps know not to eat each other. Theoretically my blackfoot could have eaten my yellow spot, and my rhino coulod have eaten my brasil. I wouldn't press my luck though. If you got one closer to the 4" mark I would think not.

I’ll keep an eye out and talk to my lfs about ordering a brasiliensis. Hopefully it will be a brasiliensis, I know scorps get misidentified often. Thanks for the advice, I’ll let you know what I end up getting when the time comes.

 

[Han]

Well I went to my lfs today to buy some ghost shrimp, and I asked about ordering a brasiliensis. They said they would be willing to, but then offered their purple rhinopias that has been in the store for 6+ months to me for half price. They fed it a silverside for me, which it ate without hesitation. Only problem is that I want to wait a month before adding fish and the store can’t hold the fish for that long. They said if it’s still there when my tank is done cycling that they will honor the discount. Normally I’d be concerned buying a fish that has been at the lfs that long (they run copper) but this fish has been in the invert system the whole time and has not been exposed. Do you think this fish would be a good candidate for my new tank?

 

[lion king]

I would not buy a lion or scorp from a store that runs copper, PERIOD. I have tracked lions and scorps from 2 stores in town that run copper, they never live much more than a year or so. Most times much less, I'm talking dozens of fish so there has to be some connection. I've cut some open to find what appeared to be organ damage, basically mush. For me I am convinced that certain fish will experience organ damage due to copper exposure; lions, scorps, and eels appear to be especially sensitive. This results in organ failure and death very prematurely.

 

[Han]

I would not buy a lion or scorp from a store that runs copper, PERIOD. I have tracked lions and scorps from 2 stores in town that run copper, they never live much more than a year or so. Most times much less, I'm talking dozens of fish so there has to be some connection. I've cut some open to find what appeared to be organ damage, basically mush. For me I am convinced that certain fish will experience organ damage due to copper exposure; lions, scorps, and eels appear to be especially sensitive. This results in organ failure and death very prematurely.
[/QUOTE

I would not buy a lion or scorp from a store that runs copper, PERIOD. I have tracked lions and scorps from 2 stores in town that run copper, they never live much more than a year or so. Most times much less, I'm talking dozens of fish so there has to be some connection. I've cut some open to find what appeared to be organ damage, basically mush. For me I am convinced that certain fish will experience organ damage due to copper exposure; lions, scorps, and eels appear to be especially sensitive. This results in organ failure and death very prematurely.

I had used copper before to treat velvet and it is easily my biggest regret I have since I’ve started keeping fish. Any fish that survived the velvet “mysteriously” died within a couple months with no visible signs of disease. We’re talking about fat, overall healthy fish fine one moment and dead the next. Snowflake eel, bluespotted puffer, and several more. So I definitely understand your aversion to copper. I’m willing to give this rhino a try though, this is the cheapest I’ll be able to find one and the way I look at it- if the lfs was being completely honest and the fish was never exposed to copper then I will have a healthy rhino that eats frozen and is well adjusted to captive life. If not and the lfs is lying, then the fish is almost certainly destined to die anyway and I don’t see what’s so bad about trying to give such a fish a better life.

[/QUOTE]

 

[Han]

i have no idea what happened with my previous comment, click on the quote to see my comment, sorry.

 

[lion king]

Nothing wrong with that as long as you are going into it with eyes wide open. I won't buy from these stores because it is so heart breaking to me to lose a fish, and I really believe copper is a death sentence. Some stores that at least care a little bit, will keep these sensitive fish in their invert systems. If I can figure it out, they D well know too. They just hope to move it through before it dies in the store. If they said it wasn't exposed to copper, are they by chance keeping it in the invert system.

 

[Han]

Yes, the fish is in their invert system and is currently sharing a tank with an angler, some starfish, and urchins. I know it’s still a risk but I have been going to this lfs for a couple years now and have never seen a rhino in their fish system, they always keep them with the inverts.

 

[lion king]

In that case I would jump it, there is no copper in the invert system. Since he has been there that long he is also obviously clear of any internal parasites. I lost a rhino due to internal parasites, that was $450 kick in the jewels. Have a couple of mollies or ghosties ready, many times when these type of preds get moved; it's like a restart to their feeding routine.