Nitrate Monster

[CG2000]

I have a 10mth old 22 Gal tank, it was pretty stable, but nothing was growing much. I then realized after watching a BRS video that I was really underlighting. My light was way too high, and set about 50% too low on intensity. It made sense why eveything was barely growing. So now I have it setup to correctly, things appear to be growing more, including Algae. I've added some more snails to keep up which is working.

The issue is I can't keep the nitrates and phosphates above zero. To avoid Dinos (again) I dose up to 2.5 and 0.05 with Neophos and Neonitro. 24hrs later it reads zero (Hanna testers) on both again. A couple of days ago I increased the amount of food by about 30% and turned off my skimmer, still it's reading zero after 24hrs.

I think, but would like to confirm that all that is happening is the increased growth of coral and algae is consuming them and I should continue to increase feeding and keep the skimmer off (I also have a Nanomat roll filter). Wanted to make sure my assumptions are right and I'm not missing something obvious.

Thanks

 

[BryanM]

We would need to know a lot more about stocking and feeding, but its certainly possible that the increased lighting is causing increased growth and consumption.

The DIY recipes for nitrate and phosphate are easy to make and easy to use. And a lot cheaper than neo-X.

Last, I would argue that many of us, unless going specifically for ultra low nutrient systems, prefer Nitrates 10-50, and phosphates .1-.3... More breathing room, less worrying about numbers.

 

[CG2000]

We would need to know a lot more about stocking and feeding, but its certainly possible that the increased lighting is causing increased growth and consumption.

The DIY recipes for nitrate and phosphate are easy to make and easy to use. And a lot cheaper than neo-X.

Last, I would argue that many of us, unless going specifically for ultra low nutrient systems, prefer Nitrates 10-50, and phosphates .1-.3... More breathing room, less worrying about numbers.

OK, I'd be happy to up the Nitrate target to 10-50 if I can get any where near it!

So ...

Livestock:
2 clown fish
1 royal gamma
1 lemon damsel
1 watchman goby & pistol shrimp pair
1 Algae blenny
2 Mexican Turbo Snails
6 Astrid Snails
2 or 3 Trucus Snails
3 small hermit crabs
1 emerald crab
(Fish are all in the region of 1.25" to 1.5")

Feeding before adjusting the light
Morning: 1/8 of a cube mysis shrimp per day + a pinch of seaweed extreem.
Evening: 1/8 of a cube brine shrimp per day + a pinch of sea weed extreem.
(They eat the meal within about 10 seconds, and have been happy with that amount for months.)

Feeding after adjusting the light I'd added a third feed (its actually a 50% increase not 30%),
Lunchtime: 1/8 of a cube mysis shrimp per day + a pinch of seaweed extreem.

Addtional inputs:
I also add 10ml of phyto each morning.
Twice per week I add a 1/2 teaspoon of reef roids (broadcast).

Water Change
Typically do about 15% once per week

Dosing:
NeoPhos ~4ml
NeoNitro ~7ml
Alk: i can't remember the volume it's on a pump to maintain around 9

Current Parameters (stable):
Alk: 8.8 - 9
Calcium: ~440
Magnesium: ~1400

 

[SaltyCrew4u]

OK, I'd be happy to up the Nitrate target to 10-50 if I can get any where near it!

So ...

Livestock:
2 clown fish
1 royal gamma
1 lemon damsel
1 watchman goby & pistol shrimp pair
1 Algae blenny
2 Mexican Turbo Snails
6 Astrid Snails
2 or 3 Trucus Snails
3 small hermit crabs
1 emerald crab
(Fish are all in the region of 1.25" to 1.5")

Feeding before adjusting the light
Morning: 1/8 of a cube mysis shrimp per day + a pinch of seaweed extreem.
Evening: 1/8 of a cube brine shrimp per day + a pinch of sea weed extreem.
(They eat the meal within about 10 seconds, and have been happy with that amount for months.)

Feeding after adjusting the light I'd added a third feed (its actually a 50% increase not 30%),
Lunchtime: 1/8 of a cube mysis shrimp per day + a pinch of seaweed extreem.

Addtional inputs:
I also add 10ml of phyto each morning.
Twice per week I add a 1/2 teaspoon of reef roids (broadcast).

Water Change
Typically do about 15% once per week

Dosing:
NeoPhos ~4ml
NeoNitro ~7ml
Alk: i can't remember the volume it's on a pump to maintain around 9

Current Parameters (stable):
Alk: 8.8 - 9
Calcium: ~440
Magnesium: ~1400

What types of filtration do you use? I'd stop doing water changes until your numbers go up. Also bump up the amount of neo nitro and phos. Try 10-12 ML of Nitro and 8 ML of Phos until you see the numbers go up.

 

[SaltyCrew4u]

OK, I'd be happy to up the Nitrate target to 10-50 if I can get any where near it!

So ...

Livestock:
2 clown fish
1 royal gamma
1 lemon damsel
1 watchman goby & pistol shrimp pair
1 Algae blenny
2 Mexican Turbo Snails
6 Astrid Snails
2 or 3 Trucus Snails
3 small hermit crabs
1 emerald crab
(Fish are all in the region of 1.25" to 1.5")

Feeding before adjusting the light
Morning: 1/8 of a cube mysis shrimp per day + a pinch of seaweed extreem.
Evening: 1/8 of a cube brine shrimp per day + a pinch of sea weed extreem.
(They eat the meal within about 10 seconds, and have been happy with that amount for months.)

Feeding after adjusting the light I'd added a third feed (its actually a 50% increase not 30%),
Lunchtime: 1/8 of a cube mysis shrimp per day + a pinch of seaweed extreem.

Addtional inputs:
I also add 10ml of phyto each morning.
Twice per week I add a 1/2 teaspoon of reef roids (broadcast).

Water Change
Typically do about 15% once per week

Dosing:
NeoPhos ~4ml
NeoNitro ~7ml
Alk: i can't remember the volume it's on a pump to maintain around 9

Current Parameters (stable):
Alk: 8.8 - 9
Calcium: ~440
Magnesium: ~1400

Also what corals do you have in the tank? Adding fish doesn't necessarily mean it will raise nitrate. I over stocked my 36G hoping to raise the levels. I realized I just have to manually dose. 6 fish for a 22G is a lot.

 

[Minifoot77]

You could also dose ammonia bicarbonate corals normally like that. I was bottomed out on nitrate until I started adding 30ml of ammonia/urea to my 80 gallon system. I make a stock solution of 10g ammonia bicarb and 2.5g of urea in 500ml of rodi

 

[CG2000]

What types of filtration do you use? I'd stop doing water changes until your numbers go up. Also bump up the amount of neo nitro and phos. Try 10-12 ML of Nitro and 8 ML of Phos until you see the numbers go up.

I have a Nanomat roller and a Sicce Protein Skimmer, I turned off the skimmer 2 days ago, it hasn’t appeared to move the needle.

 

[BryanM]

OK, I'd be happy to up the Nitrate target to 10-50 if I can get any where near it!

So ...

Livestock:
2 clown fish
1 royal gamma
1 lemon damsel
1 watchman goby & pistol shrimp pair
1 Algae blenny
2 Mexican Turbo Snails
6 Astrid Snails
2 or 3 Trucus Snails
3 small hermit crabs
1 emerald crab
(Fish are all in the region of 1.25" to 1.5")

Feeding before adjusting the light
Morning: 1/8 of a cube mysis shrimp per day + a pinch of seaweed extreem.
Evening: 1/8 of a cube brine shrimp per day + a pinch of sea weed extreem.
(They eat the meal within about 10 seconds, and have been happy with that amount for months.)

Feeding after adjusting the light I'd added a third feed (its actually a 50% increase not 30%),
Lunchtime: 1/8 of a cube mysis shrimp per day + a pinch of seaweed extreem.

Addtional inputs:
I also add 10ml of phyto each morning.
Twice per week I add a 1/2 teaspoon of reef roids (broadcast).

Water Change
Typically do about 15% once per week

Dosing:
NeoPhos ~4ml
NeoNitro ~7ml
Alk: i can't remember the volume it's on a pump to maintain around 9

Current Parameters (stable):
Alk: 8.8 - 9
Calcium: ~440
Magnesium: ~1400

So my experience dosing neonitro was subpar at best.

I also feed tdo chromoboost 3x a day and target feed corals 1-2x a week with frozen mysis. 10 seconds and done, I feel like you're underfeeding IMO.

Dosing the DIY Sodium nitrate has INSTANT results raising nitrates in my tank. I was down to 1-ish nitrates when I started this. per the recipep on this side I dose 80ml of that, raising it 8 in my tank, and its pretty dang close to that.

I have always had elevated phos, so I am tryihg to lower that, and have no comment on dosing for that.... But if/when I get ultra low on phos I will be doing the DIY recipe here for that as well.

 

[Fish Fan]

First, just because I don't think anyone asked yet, what are you using for testing kits?

If your numbers are valid (zero N&P), I agree with @Minifoot77 that dosing ammonia is a great way to bring up the nitrate, it's safe to do, and your corals will benefit more from ammonia more than nitrate:

DIY Ammonia dosing for low nitrate systems

Some reef aquaria have chronic low nitrogen availability. One indicator is very low nitrate. Nitrate dosing is a fine remedy, but it is possible that ammonia dosing may be more beneficial for some organisms since ammonia can be energetically easier to assimilate than is nitrate. For this...

www.reef2reef.com

You can dose nitrate like @BryanM suggested just above, that's also a solid option.

You can dose a solution of sodium phosphate to raise P:

DIY Phosphate Dosing Recipe

Sometimes phosphate can be so stubbornly low that the only way to meaningfully raise it is by directly dosing phosphate. When you feed foods, you’re adding nitrogen, carbon, and loads of organics. This effect is compounded if you’re trying to offset rocks that initially work against you by...

www.reef2reef.com

I believe that these DIY dosing approaches are a better way to go than the Brightwell and Tropic Marin versions because the name brands are often very weak solutions. Try some DIY solutions, and I believe you'll have better luck.

I hope this helps!

 

[CG2000]

Testers: I have Hanna testers for Alk, Nitrate (HR), Phosphate (ULR), Calcium, Magnesium.

Coral: I have the standard starter Soft Corals (zoas, kenya tree, lettuce leather, toadstool leather, GSP, some kid of daisy polyp, purple porgonian, green emerald mushrooms, rhodactis mushroom) and some LPS (a hammer, frogspawn, Lobophyllia, balsto, lepto). Eveything's doing well except for the frogspawn which I bleached and it's been been in a shadey area for months not really recovering.

I agree it's a little crowded for a 22Gal, for now they're getting along well. I may have a Lemon Damsel up for adoption at some point though. He's the only one that causes trouble occasionally.

Understood on the DIY dosing, makes sense to have a more concentrated and cheaper sources.

Is the expectation to be dosing Nitrate and Phosphate (or Ammonia) indefinately? Or is there some end goal here where it is stable without adding them? E.g. I up the food to a higher amount?

Also, given the live stock, what would folks advise on approximate feeding amounts?

 

[Jonify]

HI! I'd recommend ignoring your nutrients in your nano, feeding well, and doing constant water changes. Coral grows in nutrients as low as .01. And it grows in nutrients closer to .1 or even 1. There are scientific papers to support all of those levels. In you nano, I'd keep on your water changes, keep your lights consistent, and give it some time. They'll adjust and grow to water environment you give them, within reason.

 

[Mr. Mojo Rising]

I would like to see a picture of the tank, frankly, 6 fish in a 22 gallon is very over stocked. You have more fish in your 22 than I have in my 40 gallon. With this, and with algae growing, I don't believe for a second that additional nutrients are needed.

I would not dose anything, I would turn the skimmer back on, and I would continue to with weekly water changes.

I would keep feeding 3 times per day, being overstocked with those type of fish (clowns and damsels), if there is no aggression yet its lucky but doesn't mean it will be peaceful forever, fish grow and get more territorial and aggressive as they grow.

 

[CHSUB]

HI! I'd recommend ignoring your nutrients in your nano, feeding well, and doing constant water changes. Coral grows in nutrients as low as .01. And it grows in nutrients closer to .1 or even 1. There are scientific papers to support all of those levels. In you nano, I'd keep on your water changes, keep your lights consistent, and give it some time. They'll adjust and grow to water environment you give them, within reason.

I would like to see a picture of the tank, frankly, 6 fish in a 22 gallon is very over stocked. You have more fish in your 22 than I have in my 40 gallon. With this, and with algae growing, I don't believe for a second that additional nutrients are needed.

I would not dose anything, I would turn the skimmer back on, and I would continue to with weekly water changes.

I would keep feeding 3 times per day, being overstocked with those type of fish (clowns and damsels), if there is no aggression yet its lucky but doesn't mean it will be peaceful forever, fish grow and get more territorial and aggressive as they grow.

Here we go! Not trusting inaccurate, low resolution hobby testing and instead using common sense. Tank has more than enough nutrients, from the fish population and likely a minimum stock of corals. On a path to leaving the hobby imo: turn off skimmer, reducing maintenance, increasing feeding are all terrible options in a closed system.

 

[BryanM]

I believe that these DIY dosing approaches are a better way to go than the Brightwell and Tropic Marin versions because the name brands are often very weak solutions. Try some DIY solutions, and I believe you'll have better luck.

Agreed 100%, and I did dose NeoNitro per the bottle, and it almost didn't move the needle.

 

[Lasse]

You can´t overstock a tank according to nutrient waste from the stock - but you can overfeed a tank. Its not the amount of fish that is important - its the amount of feed you give them if you are concerned about waste nutrient in the water.

You have six fish that barley have lost their egg sack's (1.25 - 1.5 " is very small fish - IMO - its fry - not fish

You feed with 3/8 cube mysis shrimp a day - believe me - they are going to be fry for a long period. You do not overfeed - you underfeed.

I never thought I would have to yell - you are feeding too little - to an aquarist. Those of you who have followed me over the years understand my shock

I could easily feed that tank 2-3 cubes per day and still not overfeed. Start with at least 1 cube per day and work your way up. 1 cube frozen mysis shrimp (weight 4-5 gr) contain lesser nutrients than 1 gr dry food do.

My tank is 80 G - I have for the moment 30 + fish (and they are not fry) - feed with around 6 - 7 cubes a day (sometimes more) of frozen artemia, cyclops and blod worms.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[CG2000]

Here we go! Not trusting inaccurate, low resolution hobby testing and instead using common sense. Tank has more than enough nutrients, from the fish population and likely a minimum stock of corals. On a path to leaving the hobby imo: turn off skimmer, reducing maintenance, increasing feeding are all terrible options in a closed system.

What do you mean by “On a path to leaving the hobby imo:”

 

[CG2000]

Thanks eveyone for the input. It's clear that my tank is currently overstocked and I am not feeding them enough.

Stocking: I'll look to find a new home for the Lemon Damsel and see how I go, long story but I didn't really want him in the first place as it happens.

Feeding: Lasse, thanks for the feeding direction. With your 7 cubes and 30 mature fish that's ball park 1/4 cube of food per fish per day. That would equate to 1.5 cubes for my 6 fish if they were large, so starting with 1 cube per day as you suggested makes sense.

Nutrients: Jonify, I understand the sentiment of ignoring nutrient levels, but that approach isn't for me. I'm an engineer, I like data and want to understand what's going on. I don't want to chase numbers endlessly, but I also don't want dinos and cyano again. I'm interested in understanding what's going on using data and learning how to find the right balance.

The outstanding question for me is: assuming I get the stocking and feeding more resonable, should my expectation be to be dosing Nitrate and Phosphate (or Ammonia) indefinately? Or is there some end goal here where it is stable without adding them?

 

[Lasse]

Stocking: I'll look to find a new home for the Lemon Damsel and see how I go, long story but I didn't really want him in the first place as it happens.

As I see it - you are not overstocked from a nutrient waste point of view

Are you overstocked from a aggression point of view? That question is more difficult to answer. My experiences with aggressive territorial fish species (like cichlids from the great lakes of Africa) says that if you see aggression - more fish may be the solution of the problem.

Are you overstocked from a hiding place point of view?

I do not know - the construction of your stone work may answer that question. My rule between the thumb and the index finger is at least 1 hiding place / fish but two or more is better.

Are you overstocked from a preferred live space point of view?

You have two benthic and bottom dwelling fish - one wandering and one stationary (the blenny and the goby). 3 fishes that use a fix benthic point and water above and around that point (the three damsels) and one wandering soul that use the more open water - the gamma. IMO - a rather good distribution in terms of "living area"

Are you overstocked from a species aggression point of view?

In my old 120 G I had plenty of them (or a similar species) for many years and IMO - they was rather peacefully



But one in a 22 -gallon tank can arouse its territorial spirit - note that I'm not saying you should add more of this species as it would probably end in disaster, but if you had started with maybe 5 small ones it would have worked out well.

Are you overstocked from a point of view of stress?

This I can´t say because its depends of the sum of all the other arguments I had mentioned

Its difficult to say if removing your yellow damsel will give a peaceful aquarium because other fishes in your system could step up its individual aggression pattern.

By - the way - when you calculate feeding rate - do not forget that younger fish eat more in relation to size than adult fish do - they had to grow too not only meet the daily energy demand. Many of mine are +6 years old - some even older

Sincerely Lasse

 

[CHSUB]

is I can't keep the nitrates and phosphates above zero. To avoid Dinos (again) I dose up to 2.5 and 0.05 with Neophos and Neonitro

turned off my skimmer

NeoPhos ~4ml
NeoNitro ~7ml

All of these actions are inconsistent with long term success in the hobby. You have a large fish load but seem to believe you need to “dirty” your aquarium based on hobby testing. This is a deviation from the hobby fundamental of keeping the aquarium clean. Im not sure if you are under feeding however over feeding is the first and largest mistake most hobbyists make. I have 8 fish and feed only a single cube a day, however more than half goes to a NPS coral that requires daily feeding.

and have been happy with that amount for months.

Reading this comment: why increase feeding?

Imo dosing nutrients and turning off a skimmer is nearly always a mistake. I would target feed you reef Roids and be cautious with the amount, which seems like a lot.

Twice per week I add a 1/2 teaspoon of reef roids (broadcast).

 

[Lasse]

All of these actions are inconsistent with long term success in the hobby. You have a large fish load but seem to believe you need to “dirty” your aquarium based on hobby testing.

What´s longtime success in the hobby in your world?

This is a deviation from the hobby fundamental of keeping the aquarium clean.

Its not a deviation from the hobby fundamental - it may be a deviation from your approach to the hobby.

Imo dosing nutrients and turning off a skimmer is nearly always a mistake

IMO - dosing nutrients can be a positive approach but your right with the skimmer. The skimmer does not do anything according exporting phosphorous - it can export some nitrogen thought - by degassing NH3 and collecting proteins and amino acids. But what it really does is gassing your aquarium water - out with CO2 and NH3 and in with O2 (during photosynthesis - it can be out with that too).

I have 8 fish and feed only a single cube a day, however more than half goes to a NPS coral that requires daily feeding.

Half cube a day (around 2 g including the water) - to eight fish - no dry food?

Sincerely Lasse