Nitrates

[AdamG280]

So I’ve been cycling my tank with fish and a coral and adding nitrifying bacteria for 8 weeks now. I tested the ammonia: 0, tested the nitrites: 0, but my nitrates also look like 0. Granted, I’m using the API tests with the test tubes and I have a Hanna nitrate tester coming today, but I kind of want to put in some macroalgae. How long do you think it will take to build up some nitrates to support that?

 

[Ryan - Serious Reefs]

If you have phosphate there is likly
Nitrate but N test kits are just not very accurate. I personally find the Nyos kit the easiest to perform and read,

Often algae or coral growth can suck up the nutrients as fast as you add them.

 

[AdamG280]

Why are you doing it completely wrong?

Without elaborating, I have no idea what you mean.

 

[Aaron Stone]

Dinoflagellates have no greater ability to survive in a low nutrient environment than any other algae or plant. Cyanobacteria have an ability to fix n2 but not dinoflagellates.

Dinos can prey on bacteria, algae and other protists. This allows them to out compete said protists in a low nutrient system. That is why we tend to see a proliferation of dinos when nitrates and/or phosphates get low.

 

[ScottF]

I agree with the unnecessary. You would think I lived under a rock. This and that Red Sea has an S version. I guess when something ticks you off, you just move on and put some blinders on. I may have to look into this Voodoo you talk about.

Anyone want to trade a Hanna low range test kit with 2 extra boxes and a Hanna CA test kit with 2 extra boxes (reagent) for a Hanna high range test kit ? :) :) :) :) I also hate their Calcium.

Hanna Alk, HR NO3 and PO4. Salifert calcium and mag is the way to go. I also use Trident and TridentNP, but I don't trust them as far as I can throw them. My Trident falls out of calibration regularly and the NP is way worse.

 

[ScottF]

If you have phosphate there is likly
Nitrate but N test kits are just not very accurate. I personally find the Nyos kit the easiest to perform and read,

Often algae or coral growth can suck up the nutrients as fast as you add them.

I agree that if phosphate is over 0.1 than something is probably wrong with his nitrate kit. I mean I guess it's possible if he is using food super high in PO4 and there is a bunch of algae consuming nutrients. I doubt corals would uptake that much in a new tank unless he has a bunch of established colonies.

 

[CHSUB]

Dinos can prey on bacteria, algae and other protists. This allows them to out compete said protists in a low nutrient system. That is why we tend to see a proliferation of dinos when nitrates and/or phosphates get low.

Yes Karenia Brevis, a dinoflagellate, feeds on Cyano that is able to fix n2 and other Dinos have been known to feed on diatoms. However they all need nutrients, no magic happens when nutrients are low or high. This is basic biology…more nutrients more algae.

 

[CHSUB]

0 nitrates is not fine. ULNS was a fad a bunch of years back but now there sure is a lot more evidence that shows proper nutrients levels are essential to coral health and the tank environment. Very experienced reefers may elect to go ULNS with SPS systems because they have fine tuned their skills for that type of tank. For u all us average reefers 0 nutrients means big problems.

The evidence is well documented that high nutrients are detrimental to corals health. Any evidence you might post or read is from “glass box hobbyist” who have corals growing in high nutrient levels with success, which is very possible; however it far from evidence and closer to anecdotally, fabrication and inaccuracy.

 

[AdamG280]

Dinos can prey on bacteria, algae and other protists. This allows them to out compete said protists in a low nutrient system. That is why we tend to see a proliferation of dinos when nitrates and/or phosphates get low.

Cyano is being scraped off sides and then the UV sterilizer gets it, or it just gets stuck in the filter sock.

If you’ve had fish in the tank for 8 weeks you can stop testing ammonia and nitrite…if you were cycled your fish would already be dead and now those tests don’t matter

It is a bit odd there’s zero nitrate and you do need to get that number up above zero soon. It’s also time to start testing phosphate and make sure that’s somewhat in line as well and not zero or too high.

Check your nitrate when your Hanna gets here and see if it registers something and then get a phosphate test as well.

The only reason I tested the ammonia and nitrites this late in the game was because I didn’t see any nitrates. I was just checking that I wasn’t still cycling.

 

[Lavey29]

The evidence is well documented that high nutrients are detrimental to corals health. Any evidence you might post or read is from “glass box hobbyist” who have corals growing in high nutrient levels with success, which is very possible; however it far from evidence and closer to anecdotally, fabrication and inaccuracy.

We can even clearly see it here on this web forum. How many hundreds, thousands of threads have we seen here about people with dying corals and dinos and the common denominator of bottomed out nutrients?

 

[CHSUB]

We can even clearly see it here on this web forum. How many hundreds, thousands of threads have we seen here about people with dying corals and dinos and the common denominator of bottomed out nutrients?

Could be millions…but it is all hobby observations by hobbyists. Research on corals by scientists and researchers for decades proves the exact opposite. Many reasons corals die in glass boxes, getting definitive answers based on hobby test kits purchased at Walmart is at best a coin flip. The only take away is despite direct evidence, hobbyists are able to grow corals in what seems to be an inhospitable environment, which imo is a win for the hobby and could result in a greater understanding of why?

 

[Lavey29]

Could be millions…but it is all hobby observations by hobbyists. Research on corals by scientists and researchers for decades proves the exact opposite. Many reasons corals die in glass boxes, getting definitive answers based on hobby test kits purchased at Walmart is at best a coin flip. The only take away is despite direct evidence, hobbyists are able to grow corals in what seems to be an inhospitable environment, which imo is a win for the hobby and could result in a greater understanding of why?

And the expert scientists reason why so many are successful reefers that run tanks with ample nutrients levels? Or the reason why so many fail with bottomed out nutrients?

I do agree that test kits are only an average basic gauge of environment conditions.

 

[Aaron Stone]

Yes Karenia Brevis, a dinoflagellate, feeds on Cyano that is able to fix n2 and other Dinos have been known to feed on diatoms. However they all need nutrients, no magic happens when nutrients are low or high. This is basic biology…more nutrients more algae.

Agreed, but I think the point is certain types are more manageable than others, especially in a young system. Dinos are notoriously obstinate. In a new tank most would rather battle hair algae than dinos.

As the tank matures and a balanced and diverse competition is taking place at the cellular level this becomes much less of a concern.

 

[CHSUB]

And the expert scientists reason why so many are successful reefers that run tanks with ample nutrients levels? Or the reason why so many fail with bottomed out nutrients?

I do agree that test kits are only an average basic gauge of environment conditions.

imo, an experienced reefer could be successfully with either approach, as I have been depending a fish load. I’m not held prisoner to inorganic nutrient levels, especially gauged by hobby testing. Corals and algae need nutrients that is undebatable, so we can agree there….

 

[Lavey29]

imo, an experienced reefer could be successfully with either approach, as I have been depending a fish load. I’m not held prisoner to inorganic nutrient levels, especially gauged by hobby testing. Corals and algae need nutrients that is undebatable, so we can agree there….

Agree the good and the bad stuff needs nutrients and also light to grow but what happens in our glass boxes when things bottom out is the bad stuff out competes the good stuff for what little nutrients may be available and the inevitable happens typically.

 

[CHSUB]

Agree the good and the bad stuff needs nutrients and also light to grow but what happens in our glass boxes when things bottom out is the bad stuff out competes the good stuff for what little nutrients may be available and the inevitable happens typically.

You have overestimated dinoflagellates and other algae’s abilities, bacteria is many times more resistant….

How Dormant Bacteria Return to Life

Solution to long-standing mystery of bacterial spores illuminates new paths for disease prevention

hms.harvard.edu

How quickly can a bacterium grow?

Physicist finds that E. coli replicate close to thermodynamic limits of efficiency.

news.mit.edu

 

[Lavey29]

You have overestimated dinoflagellates and other algae’s abilities, bacteria is many times more resistant….

How Dormant Bacteria Return to Life

Solution to long-standing mystery of bacterial spores illuminates new paths for disease prevention

hms.harvard.edu

How quickly can a bacterium grow?

Physicist finds that E. coli replicate close to thermodynamic limits of efficiency.

news.mit.edu

And becoming more resistant day by day, year by year, etc...

 

[Aaron Stone]

The evidence is well documented that high nutrients are detrimental to corals health. Any evidence you might post or read is from “glass box hobbyist” who have corals growing in high nutrient levels with success, which is very possible; however it far from evidence and closer to anecdotally, fabrication and inaccuracy.

I think one thing that gets lost in a lot of these discussions is the dynamic nature of our "glass box".

Scientific research is done with the ideal baseline being a living coral reef. That reef, by its nature, is a fairly static environment on a large scale. It doesn't change. It's been ideally static for millennia. That is what has allowed it to become a "reef".

Our little glass boxes start as sterile environments that we actively attempt to evolve over years in order to build our own little vision of a reef. It is constantly changing, especially in the early years, and it's needs, inputs, and outputs are changing. A young system may have greater need of inorganic nutrients as their is a dearth of organic nutrients. Even after years we will never be able to exactly replicate the environment we idealize. This evolution is not addressed, in any way, in the scientific body, nor is the fact that our tanks are WAY outside the scientific baseline.

In short; scientific research does not necessarily apply to the hobby. It is of immense importance and provides a guiding light for what we do. But it does not always address the needs of our little glass boxes in their individual evolution.

As such, I would hazard that your derision and condescension of hobbyist observation is not helpful.

 

[jabberwock]

Without elaborating, I have no idea what you mean.

Why are you cycling with fish and corals in the tank? Why do you expect corals to thrive in a new tank? Why are you going so fast? What kind of rock did you start with? How many gallons is the tank?

API test kits are tricky to get consistent results with, but if you are performing the tests as prescribed, they should be good enough in the early stages.

If you want, post a full tank shot (FTS). It can be very helpful information. Here is my recent FTS.

 

[CHSUB]

As such, I would hazard that your derision and condescension of hobbyist observation is not helpful.

I would agree with your post, however, a recent “expert” hobbyist through observation adamantly proclaimed that mixing garlic in his fish food cured his ich problem in just days…not sure if you believe it or not, but I’m not a believer.

 

[Aaron Stone]

I would agree with your post, however, a recent “expert” hobbyist through observation adamantly proclaimed that mixing garlic in his fish food cured his ich problem in just days…not sure if you believe it or not, but I’m not a believer.

I would also say that one off observations are not helpful.