Nitrates

[CHSUB]

Maybe I'm watching to many YouTube videos of patrons saying they have almost no nitrates.???

No not really. A properly set up and maintained reef tank can easily maintain undetectable or low no3 levels. Since the hobby started using large amounts of rock in the display or sump with protein skimmers, no3 problems have disappeared. Keeping moderate fish stocking and not overfeeding also goes a long way towards helping keep no3 low.

 

[GMan1974]

Is this the only area in the aquarium where you’re seeing it? Anything similar on the glass or rocks? Also, do you notice any air bubbles forming in it?

No it will be all over the sand and glass after a week. No bobbles.

 

[Mr. Mojo Rising]

I feel that 6 fish in a 20 gallon is very overstocked, I only have 5 fish in my 40 gallon. A 20 gallon AIO filtration is likely not made for such a high bioload which can explain the nitrates. If you have a filter sock that is not changed out frequently then that will also contribute to the nitrates.

I don't think feeding less is a good idea, to me its like feeding the dog less because you don't want to clean the poop anymore. You overstocked the tank and they need to eat and feeding less might result in aggression.

I feed my fish 3 times a day and my nutrients are very close to zero and no algae.

 

[sixty_reefer]

No it will be all over the sand and glass after a week. No bobbles.

If we were to apply Liebig’s law to your system, then if those are truly diatoms they will still need a source of silica to sustain themselves.
It might be worth checking the water source you’re using unless you only have recently turned the lights on the aquarium, then silica could be a contaminant in the sand and rock and they will only disappear once silica is exhausted.
If you’re in doubt, the best option is usually a microscope, diatoms are generally quite easy to identify and it’s always better to confirm what you’re dealing with before trying to solve it.

 

[Alexander1312]

Hey all I've got a JBJ20r nano. Its been up and running for about 4 months. I cannot get my Nitrates down below 15PPM. Even after a water change including cleaning the sand. I've got 6 small fish plus invertebrates. I feed once daily ,1 small pinch of pellets. Now I'm gonna try feeding every other day. I do weekly water changes up to 50 percent. Any suggestions? Thanks for your time.
Glenn

I have a 150-gallon tank and had a similar concern.

I did 30% water changes weekly for months, which is a lot of water and expensive.

This led to very high iron and manganese (anti-caking agent in the salt). Nitrate did not move proportionately down.

I stopped water changes for 4-5 weeks to bring iron and manganese down. It had very little to no impact on Nitrates.

Only the skimmer had to work more.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I have a 150-gallon tank and had a similar concern.

I did 30% water changes weekly for months, which is a lot of water and expensive.

This led to very high iron and manganese (anti-caking agent in the salt). Nitrate did not move proportionately down.

I stopped water changes for 4-5 weeks to bring iron and manganese down. It had very little to no impact on Nitrates.

Only the skimmer had to work more.

Is there a reason you think that iron and manganese are anti caking agents in the salt you used? What salt?

 

[Alexander1312]

Is there a reason you think that iron and manganese are anti caking agents in the salt you used? What salt?

Yes, there is. This was confirmed by the seller. Fauna Marin Pro.

Which salt do you think does this not have included? I am currently only aware of one.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Without getting into the whole anti-caking debate, if you look at the rtparty salt mix study, I do not see problematic levels of either iron or manganese (both of which are rapidly depleted) in many of the salt mixes examined.

The Ultimate Salt Test

I wanted to get this thread up and going before the holidays soak up all my time. I did a live YouTube with Deven from ReefDudes going over things but it is about 1.5 hours long. I will write up a more detailed explanation here in this first post soon. I am a hobbyist first and foremost. I have...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Alexander1312]

Without getting into the whole anti-caking debate, if you look at the rtparty salt mix study, I do not see problematic levels of either iron or manganese (both of which are rapidly depleted) in many of the salt mixes examined.

The Ultimate Salt Test

I wanted to get this thread up and going before the holidays soak up all my time. I did a live YouTube with Deven from ReefDudes going over things but it is about 1.5 hours long. I will write up a more detailed explanation here in this first post soon. I am a hobbyist first and foremost. I have...

www.reef2reef.com

I have not followed the anti-caking debate, but my buildup on both iron and manganese was significant after months of weekly 30% water changes.

The assumption that both are being depleted relatively quickly, iron more so than manganese, still holds if water changes are at normal levels, 10% weekly, 30% monthly, but apparently less so with rather excessive weekly water changes.

After 4 weeks of no water change, this was broadly resolved, with managenese still but only slightly elevated from my preferred target.

ICP trends attached for both iron and manganese for reference.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

A water change cannot cause more iron or anything else to accumulate than is present in the salt mix. If you think that is an issue with the Fauna Marin product, pick a lower iron or manganese salt mix.

I change 31% per month (1% daily) with normal IO, and also add
More iron and manganese by AFR daily dosing, and iron (0.89 ug/L) and manganese (0.45 ug/L) levels are fine.

 

[Alexander1312]

A water change cannot cause more iron or anything else to accumulate than is present in the salt mix. If you think that is an issue with the Fauna Marin product, pick a lower iron or manganese salt mix.

I change 31% per month (1% daily) with normal IO, and also add
More iron and manganese by AFR daily dosing, and iron (0.89 ug/L) and manganese (0.45 ug/L) levels are fine.

31% monthly is different from 30% weekly from my understanding.

I also dose iron and manganese through some other dosing additions (combined trace element dosing) and I am not intending to change the salt, since it is an easy fix, and it delivers great results - and there was no tangible impact from these high amounts, I just did not want to test this long term.

The combination of continuously adding new salt combined with a lower consumption should increase both parameters temporarily. Not sure why this would not make sense and I know you thought this through, and I am just do not know all the details.

The data I have shown showed the drop after stopping WC, all other things 100% equal. Still appreciate the insight.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

31% monthly is different from 30% weekly from my understanding.

I also dose iron and manganese through some other dosing additions (combined trace element dosing) and I am not intending to change the salt, since it is an easy fix, and it delivers great results - and there was no tangible impact from these high amounts, I just did not want to test this long term.

The combination of continuously adding new salt combined with a lower consumption should increase both parameters temporarily. Not sure why this would not make sense and I know you thought this through, and I am just do not know all the details.

The data I have shown showed the drop after stopping WC, all other things 100% equal. Still appreciate the insight.

Iron and manganese are very rapidly depleted when added in appropriate forms. Those pathways include both biological consumption and abiotic precipitation.

If there is sodium ferrocyanide being added as an anti caking agent, that form may not be usable to corals or algae at all. Perhaps that may explain your result, although your experience is unusual and I’m not sure it has anything to do with the salt
Mix.

if you don’t want to do water changes for whatever reason, then don’t. Many people have nice reef tanks without water changes. I was just pointing out that you could use a different mix without having any possible problems from iron or manganese from the salt mix. There is no amount of water change, even 100% hourly, that would give an excessive iron and manganese level if you use a mix without excessive levels.

 

[Alexander1312]

Iron and manganese are very rapidly depleted when added in appropriate forms. Those pathways include both biological consumption and abiotic precipitation.

If there is sodium ferrocyanide being added as an anti caking agent, that form may not be usable to corals or algae at all. Perhaps that may explain your result, although your experience is unusual and I’m not sure it has anything to do with the salt
Mix.

if you don’t want to do water changes for whatever reason, then don’t. Many people have nice reef tanks without water changes. I was just pointing out that you could use a different mix without having any possible problems from iron or manganese from the salt mix. There is no amount of water change, even 100% hourly, that would give an excessive iron and manganese level if you use a mix without excessive levels.

There is no sodium ferrocyanide added to the salt (or any reef salt) as per my knowledge. As you know, if it was, this would have some wider implications :).

I know lots of folks who have seen the same development, typically when you take an ICP a few days after a water change. With normal sized water change, this would not be visible on an ICP within a week after the water change - different story for consistent large water changes.

Also, I am not advocating for no water change, I am just stating my observation and its remediation, supported by the data I shared, which clearly shows ‘excessive’ levels in my tank.

Thank you for taking the time sharing your perspective.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

There is no sodium ferrocyanide added to the salt (or any reef salt) as per my knowledge. As you know, if it was, this would have some wider implications :).

I know lots of folks who have seen the same development, typically when you take an ICP a few days after a water change. With normal sized water change, this would not be visible on an ICP within a week after the water change - different story for consistent large water changes.

Also, I am not advocating for no water change, I am just stating my observation and its remediation, supported by the data I shared, which clearly shows ‘excessive’ levels in my tank.

Thank you for taking the time sharing your perspective.

You said FM told you they use iron and manganese as anticaking. If not ferrocyanide (an anticaking agent)what is it?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

FWIW, I don’t have much confidence in FM’s grasp of
Chemistry based on previous statements they have made.

 

[Stakenshake]

There is no sodium ferrocyanide added to the salt (or any reef salt) as per my knowledge. As you know, if it was, this would have some wider implications :).

I know lots of folks who have seen the same development, typically when you take an ICP a few days after a water change. With normal sized water change, this would not be visible on an ICP within a week after the water change - different story for consistent large water changes.

Also, I am not advocating for no water change, I am just stating my observation and its remediation, supported by the data I shared, which clearly shows ‘excessive’ levels in my tank.

Thank you for taking the time sharing your perspective.

I work in big salt. Nearly all salt contains either YPS (sodium ferrocyanide) at 12ppm or less (as regulated by the FDA) or 1-2% TCP Tricalcium Phosphate. I believe there are some unique alternative that are considered but they do not do as good of job as YPS.

There are some grades available for purchase with no anti caking agents in but it clumps so fast and would have a terrible end user experience at the consumer level. These products would be for business who are using it or brining the salt nearly immediately.

The untreated salt bridges so fast and wrecks havoc in any and all storage bins. It is a daily battle for those in the “dry side” of the plants.