No love for MH?

[PBnJOnWheat]

Age old myth that keeps people from trying Halides, imo.
Running 2 250 watt mh 8hrs a day does not cost much at all.
After all the money people spend on reefing the cost is minimal at best.
All my friends run leds and have awesome tanks.
All my corals have been grown from frags.
I enjoy the growing journey and my tank is comming up on 21 months now.
Peace brother run what works for you I do.

You saving nothing with LED. You only recoup the upfront price difference after 7-8 years, at which point you buy the latest LED again.

I’ve never bought or used Halides so idk how accurate this info is or to what level of related to this hobby is but, there’s a reason people don’t do halides and I’ve been told it’s cost. If that’s not the case someone run some numbers ima switch lighting systems but there’s a reason new tech>old tech

Might not be reef related but the concept is the same, higher wattage= higher cost, lower wattage=lower cost. It may cause them to grow faster and I agree it does look better but $4,000 to $12,000 is a big difference. The growth rate different between the two has to be very significant for that to be worth it. That’s just the electrical cost difference

 

[X-37B]

So running halides is just as energy efficient as LED’s?

Never said that!
I said the cost to run is not as much as people think.
Setup right they dont need a chiller.
If you saw a properly run MH system you would be impressed.
That said if I was to go full led I would use OR3 light bars for the whole system.
Led friends are selling their radions for these.
I am that impressed with what they look like and the results are quite impressive.
I run one blue plus for dawn dusk and more on my 120.

 

[PBnJOnWheat]

Never said that!
I said the cost to run is not as much as people think.
Setup right they dont need a chiller.
If you saw a properly run MH system you would be impressed.
That said if I was to go full led I would use OR3 light bars for the whole system.
Led friends are selling their radions for these.
I am that impressed with what they look like and the results are quite impressive.
I run one blue plus for dawn dusk and more ony 120.

I’ll have to do some reading I know next to nothing about halides lol I’m sure the wattage and cost is less than what people think can’t be that much more expensive otherwise everyone would do LED. I’ll do some reading check out some your guys builds if u guys use MH systems.

 

[X-37B]

I’ve never bought or used Halides so idk how accurate this info is or to what level of related to this hobby is but, there’s a reason people don’t do halides and I’ve been told it’s cost. If that’s not the case someone run some numbers ima switch lighting systems but there’s a reason new tech>old tech

Might not be reef related but the concept is the same, higher wattage= higher cost, lower wattage=lower cost. It may cause them to grow faster and I agree it does look better but $4,000 to $12,000 is a big difference. The growth rate different between the two has to be very significant for that to be worth it. That’s just the electrical cost difference

I figure 2 250 watt and 1 150 watt on my frag tank mine cost me 20-25 bucks a month which is nothing in this hobby.
Check my 120 build thread. If you have any question you can pm me.
I run a basic but not the standard type of system.

 

[Bronx19]

Why don’t we just use the sun, like have your tank in the wall or something where sunlight breaches or outside? I guess the outdoor temperature would be an issue among other things but if it’s about the best quality of light why do we try to bring it indoors instead of try to develop tanks outdoors?

I have considered this a few times, but ultimately chickened out due to lack of control. You know those sky lights you can put in that connect to a foil ducting and transfer light? They might work.

 

[Bronx19]

I’ve never bought or used Halides so idk how accurate this info is or to what level of related to this hobby is but, there’s a reason people don’t do halides and I’ve been told it’s cost. If that’s not the case someone run some numbers ima switch lighting systems but there’s a reason new tech>old tech

Might not be reef related but the concept is the same, higher wattage= higher cost, lower wattage=lower cost. It may cause them to grow faster and I agree it does look better but $4,000 to $12,000 is a big difference. The growth rate different between the two has to be very significant for that to be worth it. That’s just the electrical cost difference

Halides will use more power, that is a fact. However, I've done the numbers many times and they just don't stack up. Simply divide the difference in upfront cost by the power consumption difference, simples.

2x 250W Hamilton halides + Bulbs @ $400 using 500W.
2x XR30 LED @ $1680 using 180W.

Halides - 12Hrs x (0.5kWh x $0.12) = $0.72/day
LED - 12Hrs x (0.18kWh x $0.12) = $0.26/day

Saving - $0.46/day or, $168/Year.

Upfront cost difference of $1280/$168 = 7.6 Year payback period.

Granted you have to buy bulbs every 12-18 months with halides.

 

[X-37B]

Halides will use more power, that is a fact. However, I've done the numbers many times and they just don't stack up. Simply divide the difference in upfront cost by the power consumption difference, simples.

2x 250W Hamilton halides + Bulbs @ $400 using 500W.
2x XR30 LED @ $1680 using 180W.

Halides - 12Hrs x (0.5kWh x $0.12) = $0.72/day
LED - 12Hrs x (0.18kWh x $0.12) = $0.26/day

Saving - $0.46/day or, $168/Year.

Upfront cost difference of $1280/$168 = 7.6 Year payback period.

Granted you have to buy bulbs every 12-18 months with halides.

Its less for me as I only run my Halides 8hrs a day. More is not needed.
Thats would be a 33% reduction for MH's running 8hrs.
Nice math by the way as it does not lie.

 

[A. grandis]

I’ve never bought or used Halides so idk how accurate this info is or to what level of related to this hobby is but, there’s a reason people don’t do halides and I’ve been told it’s cost. If that’s not the case someone run some numbers ima switch lighting systems but there’s a reason new tech>old tech

Might not be reef related but the concept is the same, higher wattage= higher cost, lower wattage=lower cost. It may cause them to grow faster and I agree it does look better but $4,000 to $12,000 is a big difference. The growth rate different between the two has to be very significant for that to be worth it. That’s just the electrical cost difference

Many new people that use LED and criticize metal halides never used nor even saw a tank with halides in their entire lives. They blindly believe the LED manufacturers and distributors. They believe in those who promote them to get good deals with them! They believe in YouTube channels! Shame on those YouTube channels!!!

That is why I'm so upset with the LED companies. That has been going since LEDs were introduced to reef keepers! Lies!
To get even close to mimic the amazing results from the qualities of metal halides over a reef tank we would need to get a LED fixture of the same output (many would think of watts)... Even though, the QUALITY of light (spectrum, distribution, intensity, etc..) and the actual results are far better with the metal halides than any other artificial light source!!! The LED market is a scam! They compare their products with halides and try to brain wash people with the ilusion of PAR measurements using less electricity! That is a scam! They use clean Apple like PDFs with scientific looking images to pursue their ways in the market. They even try to introduce "UV" and "IR" LEDs in their fixtures, etc... LOL! What a joke! They sponsor YouTube channels and self named "mega stores" so they can sell more and more units. That way they take over the market and brain wash people's minds into believing in what they preach! There will never be any LED that would substitute halides. Even if they make glass diodes. All the physical aspects involved in a good and proper metal halide system is what makes the difference.
It's happening all over the world! People are starting to wake up.
Even those who have tried what most call "the best reef LEDs" in the planet are realizing that there is much more to look for then the so called "electricity savings" in this hobby!
There is absolutely no danger using metal halides if the system is properly made and for the right application! That is another lie! You will burn your corals with Radions, but won't burn them with 400W halides! The UV that halides emit aren't harmful to corals when the fixture is well made and the use of proper lenses are in place, when needed!
Facts aren't opinions!
Results don't lie!
Threads like this show the undeniable truth.

 

[Rubberfrog]

Many new people that use LED and criticize metal halides never used nor even saw a tank with halides in their entire lives. They blindly believe the LED manufacturers and distributors. They believe in those who promote them to get good deals with them! They believe in YouTube channels! Shame on those YouTube channels!!!

That is why I'm so upset with the LED companies. That has been going since LEDs were introduced to reef keepers! Lies!
To get even close to mimic the amazing results from the qualities of metal halides over a reef tank we would need to get a LED fixture of the same output (many would think of watts)... Even though, the QUALITY of light (spectrum, distribution, intensity, etc..) and the actual results are far better with the metal halides than any other artificial light source!!! The LED market is a scam! They compare their products with halides and try to brain wash people with the ilusion of PAR measurements using less electricity! That is a scam! They use clean Apple like PDFs with scientific looking images to pursue their ways in the market. They even try to introduce "UV" and "IR" LEDs in their fixtures, etc... LOL! What a joke! They sponsor YouTube channels and self named "mega stores" so they can sell more and more units. That way they take over the market and brain wash people's minds into believing in what they preach! There will never be any LED that would substitute halides. Even if they make glass diodes. All the physical aspects involved in a good and proper metal halide system is what makes the difference.
It's happening all over the world! People are starting to wake up.
Even those who have tried what most call "the best reef LEDs" in the planet are realizing that there is much more to look for then the so called "electricity savings" in this hobby!
There is absolutely no danger using metal halides if the system is properly made and for the right application! That is another lie! You will burn your corals with Radions, but won't burn them with 400W halides! The UV that halides emit aren't harmful to corals when the fixture is well made and the use of proper lenses are in place, when needed!
Facts aren't opinions!
Results don't lie!
Threads like this show the undeniable truth.

That's a bit melodramatic....

I have run MH, t8s, and leds. They are all different. MH looks the best, but absolutely puts out a ton of heat and burns through electricity. I live in Arizona now and would not even consider MH. When I lived on the east coast, I found the heat/evaporation from the MH added to the humidity and made my home even more muggy.

 

[PBnJOnWheat]

Halides will use more power, that is a fact. However, I've done the numbers many times and they just don't stack up. Simply divide the difference in upfront cost by the power consumption difference, simples.

2x 250W Hamilton halides + Bulbs @ $400 using 500W.
2x XR30 LED @ $1680 using 180W.

Halides - 12Hrs x (0.5kWh x $0.12) = $0.72/day
LED - 12Hrs x (0.18kWh x $0.12) = $0.26/day

Saving - $0.46/day or, $168/Year.

Upfront cost difference of $1280/$168 = 7.6 Year payback period.

Granted you have to buy bulbs every 12-18 months with halides.

Okay so how much are bulbs every year? $50/year?

 

[PBnJOnWheat]

Halides will use more power, that is a fact. However, I've done the numbers many times and they just don't stack up. Simply divide the difference in upfront cost by the power consumption difference, simples.

2x 250W Hamilton halides + Bulbs @ $400 using 500W.
2x XR30 LED @ $1680 using 180W.

Halides - 12Hrs x (0.5kWh x $0.12) = $0.72/day
LED - 12Hrs x (0.18kWh x $0.12) = $0.26/day

Saving - $0.46/day or, $168/Year.

Upfront cost difference of $1280/$168 = 7.6 Year payback period.

Granted you have to buy bulbs every 12-18 months with halides.

$400? Where is that coming from? This is what I got. So you need a fixture and a bulb. If you do two radions you need two fixtures.

 

[X-37B]

That's a bit melodramatic....

I have run MH, t8s, and leds. They are all different. MH looks the best, but absolutely puts out a ton of heat and burns through electricity. I live in Arizona now and would not even consider MH. When I lived on the east coast, I found the heat/evaporation from the MH added to the humidity and made my home even more muggy.

I guess if you had a huge system with many Halides heat may be a problem.
I live in Norcal where it gets 90-100+ for 5-6 months out of the year.
Yeah AZ is a little warmer.
I keep the ac at 75 in the summer and my 2 250 watt Halides do not heat the my 120 at all.
It may be the lumen bright pendants.
If your in a small room with poor air circulation the heat may be a factor.
I ran halides. I ran Halides in the old days where hoods and reflector created the heat instead of venting it and tank temps were an issue so I ran a chiller.
My system does not make my house muggy at all and evap is about 1.5-2 gallons a day.
Every house is different.

 

[Soylent Wrasse]

Halides will use more power, that is a fact. However, I've done the numbers many times and they just don't stack up. Simply divide the difference in upfront cost by the power consumption difference, simples.

2x 250W Hamilton halides + Bulbs @ $400 using 500W.
2x XR30 LED @ $1680 using 180W.

Halides - 12Hrs x (0.5kWh x $0.12) = $0.72/day
LED - 12Hrs x (0.18kWh x $0.12) = $0.26/day

Saving - $0.46/day or, $168/Year.

Upfront cost difference of $1280/$168 = 7.6 Year payback period.

Granted you have to buy bulbs every 12-18 months with halides.

Why are you using one of the most expensive fixtures out there? You can get 165W Led Black boxes for $100 each. Here's a less biased "math"

2x250 Hamilton Halide Fixtures : $329 each = 658$ 250W Hamilton Fixtures <- From Hamilton's Website
2x250 Hamilton Bulbs: $59 each = 118$ Any Hamilton Bulb <- From Hamilton's Website

Note these come with magnetic ballasts, the least efficient ballasts out there. Grand total of $776

2x165 Black Box LEDs: $85 each = 170$ 165W Full Spectrum LEDs <- Amazon
Are these LEDS the best of the best? Nope, but they work just fine. Grand total of 170. Or 600$ less the first year.

I love halides, I love Hamilton fixtures (I have the 6 bulb T5 fixture over my main tank). The money isn't even remotely close. The power usage isn't even close. You can spend 300 per fixture and still come out way ahead. Halides are still good - but lets not pretend they are anything near the electrical usage of LEDS.

 

[oreo54]

At on time did a cheap analysis and one w/ "state of the art"
Can't find that one...


4 x 250W MH:

4 reflectors $150/each
4 250W Mogul base 250W 17500 bulbs $80 each.
4 icecap ballasts $140 each

$1480..
Replace bulbs every 12 to 18 months $320.

Predicted 5 yr lifespan..( or more for the Coral care)
3 full bulb replacements after initial set....
$960..
+$1480

$2440..


12 AI Primes at an est "output equivalent" to 4 250MH's..
12 x 209 = $2508
12 x 60w = 720W

16 would "fit" a bit better (symmetry) $3344

for $1264 you could do 16 "black boxes".. and pay for the heaters..

 

[X-37B]

$400? Where is that coming from? This is what I got. So you need a fixture and a bulb. If you do two radions you need two fixtures.

The lumen bright minis are out of stock. I have been trying to get 4 more just to have.
They run $150.
M80 ballast $150
Bulb $60-$70.
$360 for 1.

 

[PBnJOnWheat]

That's a bit melodramatic....

I have run MH, t8s, and leds. They are all different. MH looks the best, but absolutely puts out a ton of heat and burns through electricity. I live in Arizona now and would not even consider MH. When I lived on the east coast, I found the heat/evaporation from the MH added to the humidity and made my home even more muggy.

Why are you using one of the most expensive fixtures out there? You can get 165W Led Black boxes for $100 each. Here's a less biased "math"

2x250 Hamilton Halide Fixtures : $329 each = 658$ 250W Hamilton Fixtures <- From Hamilton's Website
2x250 Hamilton Bulbs: $59 each = 118$ Any Hamilton Bulb <- From Hamilton's Website

Note these come with magnetic ballasts, the least efficient ballasts out there. Grand total of $776

2x165 Black Box LEDs: $85 each = 170$ 165W Full Spectrum LEDs <- Amazon
Are these LEDS the best of the best? Nope, but they work just fine. Grand total of 170. Or 600$ less the first year.

I love halides, I love Hamilton fixtures (I have the 6 bulb T5 fixture over my main tank). The money isn't even remotely close. The power usage isn't even close. You can spend 300 per fixture and still come out way ahead. Halides are still good - but lets not pretend they are anything near the electrical usage of LEDS.

That’s what I’m saying, something seemed off but thank you for clarifying someone with the knowledge of halides making a fair comparison.

 

[oreo54]

Found it..Every tank/room is different.. so keep that in mind

Starting w/ the MH t5 hybrid:
$2200 for the fixture.
$800 for bulb replacements w/ a change schedule of 18 months and assuming initial fixture comes w/ a set.
$3000
1070 Electrical watts at the bulbs approx

Not considering heating ect .. just sort of light equivalence.

Current Radion Gen 5
4 units placed sideways for a 72 x 24 area
$3359.96

720 Watts at the diodes..
I consider that about watt equiv..

big assumption is that the Radions are run full..
Probably have about 20% leeway in that assuming delivery is normal..

 

[oreo54]

The lumen bright minis are out of stock. I have been trying to get 4 more just to have.
They run $150.
M80 ballast $150
Bulb $60-$70.
$360 for 1.

Add bulb replacement over 5 years..
$120-140

Say $500 tops over 5 years.
As data comes in i.e LED lasting way over 5 years this will change..
As to light falloff most run under 70-80% so can tweak years out.
It's really too early.

One time I asked how many halides died prematurely (under 1-1.5years)
Nobody bothered to answer.
Longest bulb warranty is 6 months.
Funny when "someone" talks about led fading yet fails to mention MH's changes over just a year.
NOW keep in mind different bulbs change differently but in the below note the 1 year difference in the 10000k bulb
Also keep in mind.. "it's complicated"

Aquarium Frontiers Feature

Osram/Radium 20,000 K Lamps​

Figure 3 shows the spectral distribution of the various 20,000 K Osram/Radium lamps tested, and Table V presents the PPFD. Table VI presents the drop in PPFD output when compared to new lamps. Here again, one of the lamps at 6500 hours of life seems to be an outlier (an anomaly). As seen from the data, these lamps tend to lose their output at a much higher rate compared to the 6500 and 10,000 K lamps. Year-old lamps had lost about 40 to 50 percent of their intensity. Unlike most of the other lamps, these lamps show an almost uniform reduction in intensity across the range.

Including spectrum shifts..

Point is your "stable" lighting is not very stable.
I'll let people decide on impact.
I don't think it is crucial just it "is" and doesn't detract from their usefulness one bit.

The worst two-year lamp tested only had a 29.4-percent decrease in PPFD. If we assume that, similar to the one-year lamps, 17 to 22 percent of this occurred during the first year, then only 7 to 12 percent of decrease occurred during the second year. One implication of this to the aquarist may be that instead of changing these lamps every year, they could be used for at least 18 months

Draw your own conclusions. Article presents more questions than answers.

 

[Butcher333]

I’ve never bought or used Halides so idk how accurate this info is or to what level of related to this hobby is but, there’s a reason people don’t do halides and I’ve been told it’s cost. If that’s not the case someone run some numbers ima switch lighting systems but there’s a reason new tech>old tech

Might not be reef related but the concept is the same, higher wattage= higher cost, lower wattage=lower cost. It may cause them to grow faster and I agree it does look better but $4,000 to $12,000 is a big difference. The growth rate different between the two has to be very significant for that to be worth it. That’s just the electrical cost difference

Yet all the big box stores from Costco to Walmart Freddie’s etc aren’t using LED. It’s false economics. Like spending $30,000 upgrading all the windows on my house. Switching to natural gas (oh wait, no new building permits will allow it and electric heat is all that’s allowed) updating house to save $600 a year. I wouldn’t live long enough to justify the savings.
I'm not lighting a warehouse, I’m lighting a tank. For $550 I gave myself the option to go 250w Radium or 400w radium. My 36” cube would have been a lot more to light using LED. No dancing rainbow sparkles effect. No heat issues to speak of , so no chiller needed. My sump must act as a chiller or something. My controller records a pretty steady temperature. Even in summer. It’s just marketing.
I think you’re also confused about useful spectrum. Metal Halide is not missing any useful spectrum. That was LEDs

 

[Bronx19]

Okay so how much are bulbs every year? $50/year?

I buy once every few years when they're on special, in my case I buy Phoenix 14k $45/piece.