NoPox start up and phosphate imbalance question

[RyansReef]

New to posting but have been lurking and learning a lot from you all.

I have been running a 75 gallon FOWLR with crushed gravel (I know this could be issue too but trying to avoid breakdown of whole LR reef to change out) with 20 gallon sump and bio-wheel for over 20 years and doing minimal maintenance over past several just trying to keep it going. Minimal fish (2 clowns have been with me almost entire time, Coral Beauty, Blue Hippo Tang, coral banded shrimp, big brittle star, and various CUC). Some GHA on some rocks which isn't great but was ok for the lack of effort required. Now I want to get back to much better state and be able to try to grow some corals to have a mixed reef. Looking at everyone's spectacular tanks has got me reinvigorated.

So.. My NO3 and PO4 were way high as expected from lack of maintenance and GHA. I have started adding to the equipment to try to help deal with it long term without huge increases in maintenance. I have done several very large water changes 40% and sucked the gravel bed clean(er).

Background on upgrades to address water chemistry.

Skimmer - I added a Aqua Excel 15 skimmer to the sump. Had tried cheap skimmers in past but never successfully and had given up. Of course this led to new sump (DIY 20 gallon long) as the evap and changes in water level were a potential problem so that was fun build.

Refugium - Since I was building new compartmentalized sump to maintain water height for skimmer, I liked the refugium option for center compartment and added live sand, a light, and chaeto. The chaeto and some kind of red macro have exploded growth. Added trigger pods and they are also growing well. I removed bio-wheel as possible NO4 factory hoping skimmer and refuge plus reactors or dosing would work better.

Reactors - This is where I started to get off track on the No/Po reduction I think. I decided to start a biopellet reactor with a GFO reactor to address and bring down the bad levels. Of course GFO started eating up the PO4 right away but the NO3 takes much longer to get going. Mid-stream I reversed course and decided to go with NoPox and dosing pump for better long term control should I ever get back control. Reactor pumps were kinda loud and tank is in tv room. I took both reactors offline and started the NoPox dosing.

Now by the time I did this, PO4 was down to 0.08 while No3 was still way high. I think I started with 5 ppm PO4 and thought 10 ppm NO3. Test kit I had was old and suspect so got RedSea pro kits but NO3 was off high end range so 64+ and got the 0.08 read on PO4.

I have been running NoPox for 6 weeks with no changes in readings. I got API NO3 kit as had graduation in higher range and is reading 80 steady for last 2 weeks with no noticeable reductions. I did start up slow (3 mL/day first week and gradual increases now up to 10 mL/day for last 2 weeks) but had hoped to at least start to see some decreases. Guessing at 75 gallon total water as have lot of LR but not sure how much. maybe 10 gallons in sump offset but the LR? So NoPox does would be 9mL/day at least for maintenance mode.

I know from some reading that an imbalance in No3 to PO4 is considered problematic on getting NoPox really working. So I am thinking of trying to dose phosphate to get levels closer or fully back in balance (16:1). I bought NeoPhos but after receiving realized to fully rebalance levels I had no where near enough.

So after this long winding story, should I rebalance PO4 fully or maybe partially or not at all?

If I just wait and continue 10mL (or even keep increasing) will it eventually payoff and start pulling NO3 down? If going this route should I keep increasing until I see changes start or up to some max really high dose and then wait for decreases?

If I do dose PO4 should I get potassium phosphate salt and hand mix instead of NeoPhos which would take a lot and try to get all the way back to 16:1? If I do will I see the GHA explode and totally take over for some time? If I dose and get back to 16:1 how long to see changes.. ok maybe hard to answer as may have locked up a lot of NO3/PO4 in LR/crushed coral bed and it has to release too.

Should I put biopellet reactor back online and try to get it to start pulling NO3 or would it have same problem with low PO4?

And lastly, should I keep doing water changes to try to get the levels back or does this make getting NoPox going? Had read some indications that hold off on water changes to let carbon build the bacterial communities. Maybe not an issue and I should startup a series of water changes to try to get balanced. I can do 30 gallons at a time (40%) and maybe every 2-3 days to mix, prep, and change out but this seems expensive and a lot of work vs letting nopox or reactor do the work.

Sorry for being a little all over the map but could use some advice on best way to address this old tank and set out on the correct course to get back in control.

 

[mta_morrow]

I dose NoPox (homemade version).

I have 130 gallon total water volume

I dose 12 ml daily.

Nitrates hang at 10-16 ppm.

PO4 at .03 - .08.

I have 24 fish, 7 anemones.

I feed a dose of pellets, 1/4 sheet of nori, and 1 cube homemade live food daily.

I would recommend pulling, scrubbing, and siphoning out as much algae as possible.

Then several large water changes.

I personally don’t think 3ml of nopox will do anything in that size tank with the livestock you have.

Just bump up to the recommended dose.

Its not an imbalance issue till you get your nitrates down to maybe under 20 from my experience.

I got my nitrates to 18 and PO4 was zero on my Hanna ULR and wouldn’t drop any lower until I dosed some phosphates up to .05.

Then nitrates dropped and now I’m staying steady at 10-12.

This is my experience, and worked for me. There will be many others that will come along.

The thing you have going for you is no coral yet so this will be a great way to learn and try things.

 

[RyansReef]

Thanks Mike. Agree this is my time to learn if I can control chemistry to reasonably stable levels before adding corals and risking them not thriving.

I am at 10 mL on NoPox I just started at 3 and gradually increased to avoid a bloom. So I haven't been at 10 for whole 6 weeks and this could also delay seeing results I suppose. 10 is about where the recommended dose is just not exactly sure what my water volume is as I never recorded water displacement of all the LR I added over first couple years. Sounds like your recommendation is to keep going with NoPox as is (with a little more maintenance and cleaning) and let it catchup some. If I have a plateau, then worry about imbalance.

Here is a pic of DT. Funny some LR repels GHA. Not sure if coralline algae on it keeps it cleaner?

 

[mta_morrow]

Your welcome!

Coralline helps repel GHA.

It took I believe 4-6 weeks once I reached 10-12ml daily then it came down nicely.

If you want to save some $$$ on NoPox, I use the recipe from our reef chemist here in R2R.

 

[User1]

Pretty much everything @mta_morrow already said. If you are using NoPox brand then it also doesn't hurt to reduce the amount that is mentioned in the instructions. They break it down I recall by mixed reef, sps, and possibly FOWLR. Don't hold me to that but you can check the instructions because they use it as a guide for your dosing. I followed the mixed reef set but cut it by 1/3 to start with. Measured twice a week, maybe three times a week initially to see what it was doing and then slowly worked my way to the recommended dose and worked back from there.

The stuff works really well. There are a lot of threads though that you will come across in which case it caused more harm than good. The key in my opinion is to know what the initial does is based on your tank and the instructions then reduce it to 1/3 and use that to start. Another one of those slow and patience things in our hobby :) If you go slow, measure to see how your tank reacts, it does well. It did for me. I stopped using it but recently just started up again along with Vibrant. Either will work but I'm using both along with a more aggressive water change schedule to remove the new nutrients that are wiped out by Vibrant and let NoPox lower phosphate.

It does lower both Nitrate and Phosphate. So really focus on that - especially Phosphate. When you reach bingo (zero) phosphate trouble happens. Best of luck.

Edit: I did not try the home brew blend in the Chem sub forum but from what I've read of others it works just as well. May be worth checking out to save some money, right?

 

[Dan_P]

New to posting but have been lurking and learning a lot from you all.

I have been running a 75 gallon FOWLR with crushed gravel (I know this could be issue too but trying to avoid breakdown of whole LR reef to change out) with 20 gallon sump and bio-wheel for over 20 years and doing minimal maintenance over past several just trying to keep it going. Minimal fish (2 clowns have been with me almost entire time, Coral Beauty, Blue Hippo Tang, coral banded shrimp, big brittle star, and various CUC). Some GHA on some rocks which isn't great but was ok for the lack of effort required. Now I want to get back to much better state and be able to try to grow some corals to have a mixed reef. Looking at everyone's spectacular tanks has got me reinvigorated.

So.. My NO3 and PO4 were way high as expected from lack of maintenance and GHA. I have started adding to the equipment to try to help deal with it long term without huge increases in maintenance. I have done several very large water changes 40% and sucked the gravel bed clean(er).

Background on upgrades to address water chemistry.

Skimmer - I added a Aqua Excel 15 skimmer to the sump. Had tried cheap skimmers in past but never successfully and had given up. Of course this led to new sump (DIY 20 gallon long) as the evap and changes in water level were a potential problem so that was fun build.

Refugium - Since I was building new compartmentalized sump to maintain water height for skimmer, I liked the refugium option for center compartment and added live sand, a light, and chaeto. The chaeto and some kind of red macro have exploded growth. Added trigger pods and they are also growing well. I removed bio-wheel as possible NO4 factory hoping skimmer and refuge plus reactors or dosing would work better.

Reactors - This is where I started to get off track on the No/Po reduction I think. I decided to start a biopellet reactor with a GFO reactor to address and bring down the bad levels. Of course GFO started eating up the PO4 right away but the NO3 takes much longer to get going. Mid-stream I reversed course and decided to go with NoPox and dosing pump for better long term control should I ever get back control. Reactor pumps were kinda loud and tank is in tv room. I took both reactors offline and started the NoPox dosing.

Now by the time I did this, PO4 was down to 0.08 while No3 was still way high. I think I started with 5 ppm PO4 and thought 10 ppm NO3. Test kit I had was old and suspect so got RedSea pro kits but NO3 was off high end range so 64+ and got the 0.08 read on PO4.

I have been running NoPox for 6 weeks with no changes in readings. I got API NO3 kit as had graduation in higher range and is reading 80 steady for last 2 weeks with no noticeable reductions. I did start up slow (3 mL/day first week and gradual increases now up to 10 mL/day for last 2 weeks) but had hoped to at least start to see some decreases. Guessing at 75 gallon total water as have lot of LR but not sure how much. maybe 10 gallons in sump offset but the LR? So NoPox does would be 9mL/day at least for maintenance mode.

I know from some reading that an imbalance in No3 to PO4 is considered problematic on getting NoPox really working. So I am thinking of trying to dose phosphate to get levels closer or fully back in balance (16:1). I bought NeoPhos but after receiving realized to fully rebalance levels I had no where near enough.

So after this long winding story, should I rebalance PO4 fully or maybe partially or not at all?

If I just wait and continue 10mL (or even keep increasing) will it eventually payoff and start pulling NO3 down? If going this route should I keep increasing until I see changes start or up to some max really high dose and then wait for decreases?

If I do dose PO4 should I get potassium phosphate salt and hand mix instead of NeoPhos which would take a lot and try to get all the way back to 16:1? If I do will I see the GHA explode and totally take over for some time? If I dose and get back to 16:1 how long to see changes.. ok maybe hard to answer as may have locked up a lot of NO3/PO4 in LR/crushed coral bed and it has to release too.

Should I put biopellet reactor back online and try to get it to start pulling NO3 or would it have same problem with low PO4?

And lastly, should I keep doing water changes to try to get the levels back or does this make getting NoPox going? Had read some indications that hold off on water changes to let carbon build the bacterial communities. Maybe not an issue and I should startup a series of water changes to try to get balanced. I can do 30 gallons at a time (40%) and maybe every 2-3 days to mix, prep, and change out but this seems expensive and a lot of work vs letting nopox or reactor do the work.

Sorry for being a little all over the map but could use some advice on best way to address this old tank and set out on the correct course to get back in control.

Dosing carbon to reduce nitrate works well if phosphate is available. Forget about “ratios” and “balancing” and focus on determining the amount of phosphate the system needs. You won’t find that in a book. You need to determine this. Dose phosphate, that is, raise the system level to 0.05-0.1 ppm, and determine how fast the system uses this while you dose Nopox. There are no short cuts. You will have to measure phosphate every day until you understand how quickly it uses PO4. Then you will have to keep supplying phosphate if you want the nitrate to be consumed at a reasonable rate. The system will likely consume phosphate quicker as you increase the nopox dose. Bacteria and algae are forgiving if you miss a day or two of phosphate dosing. They just won’t consume much nitrate but they won’t get mad and die either.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Get more snails and an urchin.
Don’t sweat the numbers so hard.



https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/my-home-tank.296635/#post-3626579

 

[User1]

Get more snails and an urchin.
Don’t sweat the numbers so hard.



https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/my-home-tank.296635/#post-3626579

I certainly do not disagree but to also be fair new tanks do not have other sources to consume nutrients. That tank there is amazing and has enough nutrient consumers - the tank here, or mine, or others not so much :D Gets back to that balance and patience part I'm sure but yeah. Number chasing is so 1984 :D

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

I certainly do not disagree but to also be fair new tanks do not have other sources to consume nutrients. That tank there is amazing and has enough nutrient consumers - the tank here, or mine, or others not so much :D Gets back to that balance and patience part I'm sure but yeah. Number chasing is so 1984 :D

True.
So I’d say the stock standard answer is to use a Refugium, get snails and appropriate cuc , and hardy corals at first (with an eye on what ultimately one wants
In and for the tank. ) to use up those extra nutrients.

 

[RyansReef]

Thanks all. I definitely don’t want to be a numbers chaser. Hadn’t done a test in years before this restart. I was however thinking that 80 on NO3 was to high to start thinking of adding any corals and was going to try to get down to the 10-20 range first.

I did start the refugium and like the idea that it might help pull out stuff naturally. And I have also added bunch of CUC with 3 narcissus, 4 turbo, 6 Trochus, and 3 of something else which I forget name of now. Also added hermits at 3 scarlet, 12 blue legged to what I had in 4 zebra and 4 Mexican red legged. They all add a lot of movement and will help. Had trouble in past keeping snails for long.

Will keep dosing and monitoring to see how this all goes. I know it’s a process and takes time. Just didn’t want to wait for months to find out low phosphates would keep the carbon dosing from making an impact on nitrate removal. Skimmate defintely pulling out stuff and may be indicator of bacterial colony growth and turnover.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks all. I definitely don’t want to be a numbers chaser. Hadn’t done a test in years before this restart. I was however thinking that 80 on NO3 was to high to start thinking of adding any corals and was going to try to get down to the 10-20 range first.

I did start the refugium and like the idea that it might help pull out stuff naturally. And I have also added bunch of CUC with 3 narcissus, 4 turbo, 6 Trochus, and 3 of something else which I forget name of now. Also added hermits at 3 scarlet, 12 blue legged to what I had in 4 zebra and 4 Mexican red legged. They all add a lot of movement and will help. Had trouble in past keeping snails for long.

Will keep dosing and monitoring to see how this all goes. I know it’s a process and takes time. Just didn’t want to wait for months to find out low phosphates would keep the carbon dosing from making an impact on nitrate removal. Skimmate defintely pulling out stuff and may be indicator of bacterial colony growth and turnover.

I would monitor phosphate, and if it drops below 0.01 ppm, I would dose it, or stop organic carbon dosing. :)

 

[RyansReef]

Thanks Randy. I have had a steady reading of 0.08 PO4 for 4 weeks now while starting to does NoPox. I was just concerned after reading other threads that this low level/ratio might prevent NoPox from starting to reduce NO3 and suggestions were to bring up PO4 through increased feeding or dosing. I was researching on NoPox start up issues as I have seen no drop in NO3 levels yet. Maybe I am just to early in the dosing routine yet to see results and will try to be patient for another couple of weeks.

Wasn't sure if I should keep increasing dosing levels over the recommended amount given my long period of high levels or just wait it out.

Also wasn't sure if changing back to trying biopellet reactor would be more effective given the imbalance.

 

[MabuyaQ]

Thanks Randy. I have had a steady reading of 0.08 PO4 for 4 weeks now while starting to does NoPox. I was just concerned after reading other threads that this low level/ratio might prevent NoPox from starting to reduce NO3 and suggestions were to bring up PO4 through increased feeding or dosing. I was researching on NoPox start up issues as I have seen no drop in NO3 levels yet. Maybe I am just to early in the dosing routine yet to see results and will try to be patient for another couple of weeks.

Wasn't sure if I should keep increasing dosing levels over the recommended amount given my long period of high levels or just wait it out.

Also wasn't sure if changing back to trying biopellet reactor would be more effective given the imbalance.

At 0.08 ppm PO4 there is plenty for algae and nitrate consuming bacteria, especially if you can maintain this level whilst dosing carbon without dosing PO4. It is very likely PO4 has precipitated onto your liverock and sandbed and now will get released because you increase the consumption of PO4 by increasing the consumption of NO3.
Just keep dosing carbon to bring nitrates down and monitor PO4. With a nitrate higher than 10ppm I would keep PO4 in the 0.04 - 0.08 ppm range ( and dose PO4 if required when it stays below 0.04) and only bring it down slowly once nitrates get below 10 ppm in the 0.02 - 0.04 ppm range.