Now They Won't Eat?

[Averhoeven]

This QT process has been a, well, process for me. Right now I have 2 batches going through QT trying to figure out how I want to do things. One batch just finished TTM tonight. They received prazi and metro on even transfers and, because there was an anthia with popeye, Furan-2 on the odd transfers. Now they are sitting in a 20L, happy as can be.

Then there's the other tank. They've been in QT for over a month. They had their time in copper, their acclimation time, their metro/prazi doses as prescribed in the "How to QT" thread. They look completely healthy. No stringy, white poop, no apparent injuries or infections, no ich and are swimming around mostly happy with the exception of the Royal Gramma who hides in the corner.

When they finished their time in copper, I transferred them to an entirely new 20L with new equipment, etc and ran them through the metro/prazi treatments. They have eaten perfectly throughout this whole process. In the tank is a purple tang, 2 clowns, 2 banggai cards, a royal gramma and a shrimp goby. I have struggled with ammonia throughout this process having to do what felt like every other to every 3rd night water changes for the past month. That is DESPITE seeding the Aquaclear 70 with Dr. Tim's at both tank starts. That is DESPITE being very careful with how and what I fed (a mix of frozen Emerald Entrée and frozen mysis soaked in garlic and Selcon). Last night I noticed that they weren't eating (hadn't replaced the Seachem badge because I was letting it dry from the last tank change). I tested the water and, of course, there was ammonia (this time being the highest and closing in on 1 I believe, but at least 0.5 by API test). I did a 75% water change.

Tonight, again, everyone but the purple tang won't eat (he eats like a horse). Stupidly, before testing ammonia again, I just added Seachem Amquel because I've been sick as hell and sick of this QT process. So I don't know what the ammonia level is tonight because now my API test can't test it. I would suspect bullying, probably by the tang, because the royal gramma hides in the corner. However, everyone else is out and about, swimming fine (after typing this, I sat there and watched them for an hour and he came out and swam about too. Tang postured at him once). The clowns will nip at mysis and then spit them out. Everyone still LOOKS perfect.... they just won't eat. Despite the fish finally being done with the QT process, the DT appears to still be cycling after 30 days with a ton of nitrites but no ammonia (I swear, this Dr. Tim's stuff doesn't work) so I can't just add them to a better environment like I would like.

If I lose this batch of fish to not eating after the INSANELY hard amount of work that completely absorbed my every night for the past month, I might just lose it. I've never struggled with a tank like I have this QT process and it's breaking me hard. Sorry for the long rant, I just need to share and to beg for help. I just can't fathom what other wrench these fish could throw at me.

TLDR: Fish finished QT and eating throughout. Now, suddenly away from any meds and chemicals in a new temporary holding tank and after an overnight ammonia spike, they won't eat. Look fine, no obvious signs of illness.

Is this the ammonia spike yesterday? Is this something about the new tank setup (no light anymore because the airstone bubbles and salt apparently shorted out the previous fixture, so they just have ambient light)? Something else? Any tips?

Eqiupment:
20L tank
Aquaclear 70
Heater @ 77F by temp probe (though requiring pretty high setting on the heater itself to accomplish that)
Airstone
PVC piping of various sizes​

 

[GoldeneyeRet]

I think you are attempting to qt too many fish at once. Start small, hone your skills and technique and this will become enjoyable!

Slow down! That's my tip

 

[Robink]

Just my opinion, but I think the reason your having problems with ammonia is that's too many fish in qt at one time. I do 3 at most in a 20 gallon. Most times I only have one in the tank by itself.

 

[HotRocks]

I agree with the others. Your ammonia issues are just due to a heavy bioload. I use Tim's frequently and never register any ammonia.

Even trace amounts of ammonia can begin to damage the fish's gills. So any registering ammonia should be dealt with immediately. If your fish were exposed to .1ppm for a couple days consecutively, this is probably why they stopped eating.

Do you have methalyne blue on hand? 30 minute baths in MB for each fish can help the healing process

 

[Averhoeven]

They weren't exposed for multiple days fortunately. It was, at most 1 maybe 2 as I had done a large (>50% WC) 2 days prior when they finished the metro/prazi treatment. Unfortunately, I don't have any methylene blue on hand at the moment, but I can check a the LFS tomorrow (though likely won't be able to do so until tomorrow evening).
Early on I recognized that I had likely pushed it with the bioload and actually purchased a 40B to use in the future. However, I was nearing the end of the copper run and felt like I was close to being finished and decided to try to power through with hard work thinking the DT should be ready soon. Despite the ammonia levels, nitrites and nitrates always read 0 (though using the same test kit, that is not the case in the DT so the kit isn't faulty). That's what has made me question the efficacy of Dr Tims. Frankly, sitting here with a fever and whole body aches the past 2 nights and having to do water changes, etc resulting in me getting minimal sleep has just taken a toll on me.

Of note, since you mentioned their gills. None of them appear to be breathing quickly at all. They all seem calm and relaxed.

 

[Rython]

Regarding your DT cycle:

My understanding is that it takes whole lot of nitrite to be toxic to fish. See http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-06/rhf/index.php

Ammonia is the dangerous one. I read a great thread on this forum at one point that described why measuring nitrite during a cycle was pointless. The only thing you really need to measure is when the tank can process 2ppm ammonia in a day. Can't find it now of course. If I were you I would do a large water change in your DT, dose ammonia up to 2ppm, measure ammonia 24 hours later and if it's zero i'd add one or two fish. Then double your fish load every month in the DT. I think you will find the ammonia is much more manageable in your QT once a couple of the fish move out.

Oh and throw a sponge in the DT sump. At some point that will be seeded with enough bacteria to "skip cycle" your QT by simply putting that sponge in your power filter. Dr. Tim's should work, but Dr. Tim's + a seeded sponge will definitely work.

 

[Rython]

Are they eating yet?

One thing i'm curious about is the widespread appetite suppression. I didn't see that listed in the symptoms of ammonia burn, and you don't have any of the usual symptoms of ammonia burn. That makes me wonder if we're missing the boat on some other problem and jumping to conclusions. In other words, yes ammonia got dangerously high, but that doesn't mean we should rule out everything else.

You mentioned shorting out your light. Any chance there was/is current in the tank? You have presumably been doing a lot of big water changes. Were the temperature and salinity always matched? Salt was completely disolved into the water? (my salt takes several hours to settle into a stable mix)

 

[Averhoeven]

Thanks for the input. Unfortunately neither of the stores around here have methylene blue. One said they should get some next Thurs...
I also thought that, despite the acknowledged high level, the fish were otherwise acting fine and not showing other symptoms. Even the earliest symptom (fast breathing) didn't seem present. They are all also quite active, swim to the glass when I walk up and have good, rich color.
After typing that last night, the heater having to be maxed and barely keeping up made me replace it with another in case something was wrong with it and it was charging the tank. The only other electricity attached to the tank is the Aquaclear. The light was a cheap, old lizard tank light I had. I just put it on top of the egg crate lid and the bubbles from the airstone popping seems to have put enough salt in it to destroy it. It has never even been over this tank since I changed them to it though. Makes me wonder if the ambient light isn't enough to wake them up enough? Does that make any sense?
The other tank (TTMed anthias) was made with the same water as the water change into this QT. Both are at 1.026/7 (kinda in between) by calibrated refractmeter.
Tonight they seemed interested in food and the clowns and one of the banggais chased some mysis, but as far as I could tell they barely nipped it or spit it out. The purple tang continues to eat like it's his job.
I would think that if it is ammonia, based on how they have responded, they weren't hit hard from it. Should I reasonably expect them to recover? How long can they go without eating?

 

[Averhoeven]

I've done everything I can think of. I've transferred the purple tang to a new tank by himself A) for bioload and B) he's gonna be the most likely bully. I've added a light over it. I've re-added the powerhead that used to be in there (on top of the aquaclear). I've done ANOTHER water change after adding the Amquel. I've added more Dr. Tims. I've mixed in brine hatchlings to the food mixture. And I've changed out the heater in case that was donating voltage.

They chase after the food, bump into it and even, sometimes, take it in their mouth and spit it out. Sometimes it looks like they are grabbing little things like the baby brine, but I'm not positive. They've otherwise continued to look completely healthy, colored well and not breathing fast. Any more ideas?

 

[Rython]

I am out of ideas. Baby brine should have worked. Maybe they are eating, just not when you are looking, or they are only spitting out a portion. Every fish I've had that wouldn't eat wouldn't even chase the food.

 

[jabberwock]

How often are you feeding them? Skip a day...