Odd Quarantine Event

[overhead]

I set up a 20 gallon tank for quarantining two fish, one Royal Gramma and one Watchman Goby. They had been in the tank 30 days (I thought it was 28 earlier today, but checked and it was 30). Copper Power at between 2.25 and 2.5 the entire time. They came from a local fish store that also runs 2.5 Copper Power and had been in the store weeks, though that likely has nothing to do with this. They both were eating, though the Goby just hung out in the corner of the tank and would really only eat when I dropped the food near it. Otherwise, it seemed fine. I had done multiple water changes without issue over the past month, always with copper already mixed in the water. Tonight was the first time it was going to be water without copper. In thinking about it, not the smartest idea to make a drastic change like that and certainly not by changing 15 gallons of water.

Double checked temperature and salinity and started the change. While removing water the fish were fine, a little bothered, but nothing unusual. However, when I started adding the new water the fish started acting distressed. At first I thought it was just all the movement around the tank, big human standing there, tubes around, etc, but the more water I added the worse they got. The symptoms were the gramma's breathing increased drastically, it started darting around and eventually went in a piece of PVC pipe and sort of kept spinning around, but not coming out. The goby started darting all over the tank and breathing very rapidly. As more water went in it got worse, to the point it was darting up and down, sometimes sideways, obviously in distress.

I did not have any other water mixed and not knowing if it was an issue with my water or not mixing more water did not seem like a good solution. And, I was not sure I had time. As I said in my build thread a moment ago, I may regret this, but I felt like my only options were to watch the fish die or try to move them to one of my DT's. So, off to the Biocube they went. Hopefully that was not a mistake, I guess we will see.

The Gramma immediately when into the rocks in the Biocube, no clue how it is doing. The Goby went directly to the bottom of the tank and laid there. Breathing rate seemed normal, it occasionally freaked out a little when I walked by, but I guess that is to be expected in a new tank.

Do you think it was the drastic change copper to no copper? Should I have done this in a more measured way, say 5 gallon changes over a couple of days? I feel silly for doing it this way, but I just did not suspect it would cause an issue. What should I test in the water that I was adding to the tank to determine what might have caused this?

 

[vetteguy53081]

I set up a 20 gallon tank for quarantining two fish, one Royal Gramma and one Watchman Goby. They had been in the tank 30 days (I thought it was 28 earlier today, but checked and it was 30). Copper Power at between 2.25 and 2.5 the entire time. They came from a local fish store that also runs 2.5 Copper Power and had been in the store weeks, though that likely has nothing to do with this. They both were eating, though the Goby just hung out in the corner of the tank and would really only eat when I dropped the food near it. Otherwise, it seemed fine. I had done multiple water changes without issue over the past month, always with copper already mixed in the water. Tonight was the first time it was going to be water without copper. In thinking about it, not the smartest idea to make a drastic change like that and certainly not by changing 15 gallons of water.

Double checked temperature and salinity and started the change. While removing water the fish were fine, a little bothered, but nothing unusual. However, when I started adding the new water the fish started acting distressed. At first I thought it was just all the movement around the tank, big human standing there, tubes around, etc, but the more water I added the worse they got. The symptoms were the gramma's breathing increased drastically, it started darting around and eventually went in a piece of PVC pipe and sort of kept spinning around, but not coming out. The goby started darting all over the tank and breathing very rapidly. As more water went in it got worse, to the point it was darting up and down, sometimes sideways, obviously in distress.

I did not have any other water mixed and not knowing if it was an issue with my water or not mixing more water did not seem like a good solution. And, I was not sure I had time. As I said in my build thread a moment ago, I may regret this, but I felt like my only options were to watch the fish die or try to move them to one of my DT's. So, off to the Biocube they went. Hopefully that was not a mistake, I guess we will see.

The Gramma immediately when into the rocks in the Biocube, no clue how it is doing. The Goby went directly to the bottom of the tank and laid there. Breathing rate seemed normal, it occasionally freaked out a little when I walked by, but I guess that is to be expected in a new tank.

Do you think it was the drastic change copper to no copper? Should I have done this in a more measured way, say 5 gallon changes over a couple of days? I feel silly for doing it this way, but I just did not suspect it would cause an issue. What should I test in the water that I was adding to the tank to determine what might have caused this?

Should not be but I often acclimate them to the new tank as if I just bought them. See how they look in the morning which I suspect should be fine and how are you testing the copper levels?

 

[overhead]

Should not be but I often acclimate them to the new tank as if I just bought them. See how they look in the morning which I suspect should be fine and how are you testing the copper levels?

Hanna Copper tester or checker or whatever the proper term is. I was testing daily and testing all water before I added it during changes. The quarantine was at 2.45 this morning. I did not check the copper level in the water I was using tonight because I did not add any copper to it.

 

[overhead]

Both fish are still alive in the DT this morning. The Royal Gramma found a cave and seems to be swimming around normally, though it did not eat. It came out and looked at the mysis floating around but did not touch it. The Yellow Watchman is glass surfing and also did not eat. The glass surfing is concerning, but I guess I will just have to give it time to see if it settles in. Last night there was no glass surfing in the DT.

Work is busy today, the only tests I could get done was salinity. Used the refractometer and a hydrometer. Quarantine tank is at 1.025, DT is 1.024. I should get some calibration fluid for the refractometer, but being that both are reading the same I am comfortable with the accuracy for now. After work, which will be I don't know when, I will run some other tests on the water.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I set up a 20 gallon tank for quarantining two fish, one Royal Gramma and one Watchman Goby. They had been in the tank 30 days (I thought it was 28 earlier today, but checked and it was 30). Copper Power at between 2.25 and 2.5 the entire time. They came from a local fish store that also runs 2.5 Copper Power and had been in the store weeks, though that likely has nothing to do with this. They both were eating, though the Goby just hung out in the corner of the tank and would really only eat when I dropped the food near it. Otherwise, it seemed fine. I had done multiple water changes without issue over the past month, always with copper already mixed in the water. Tonight was the first time it was going to be water without copper. In thinking about it, not the smartest idea to make a drastic change like that and certainly not by changing 15 gallons of water.

Double checked temperature and salinity and started the change. While removing water the fish were fine, a little bothered, but nothing unusual. However, when I started adding the new water the fish started acting distressed. At first I thought it was just all the movement around the tank, big human standing there, tubes around, etc, but the more water I added the worse they got. The symptoms were the gramma's breathing increased drastically, it started darting around and eventually went in a piece of PVC pipe and sort of kept spinning around, but not coming out. The goby started darting all over the tank and breathing very rapidly. As more water went in it got worse, to the point it was darting up and down, sometimes sideways, obviously in distress.

I did not have any other water mixed and not knowing if it was an issue with my water or not mixing more water did not seem like a good solution. And, I was not sure I had time. As I said in my build thread a moment ago, I may regret this, but I felt like my only options were to watch the fish die or try to move them to one of my DT's. So, off to the Biocube they went. Hopefully that was not a mistake, I guess we will see.

The Gramma immediately when into the rocks in the Biocube, no clue how it is doing. The Goby went directly to the bottom of the tank and laid there. Breathing rate seemed normal, it occasionally freaked out a little when I walked by, but I guess that is to be expected in a new tank.

Do you think it was the drastic change copper to no copper? Should I have done this in a more measured way, say 5 gallon changes over a couple of days? I feel silly for doing it this way, but I just did not suspect it would cause an issue. What should I test in the water that I was adding to the tank to determine what might have caused this?

It wasn't from a drop in the copper level, but something else did seem to go wrong with the water change. The fish may have just been severely stressed from a large change, but there could also have been some contaminant in the new water. Soap or chlorine are two common issues in homes.

 

[overhead]

Other than salinity and temperature the only other test I have had time to run this morning is a total Chlorine test strip from ITS which is also suppose to pick up Chloramines. Read 0.0. Of course the test instructions say use on a fresh water sample, I assume they mean "fresh" as in recent and not "fresh" as in lacking salt. They could have used a different word there. I will run the same test on my RO/DI water when I have time.

Something I did not include, which may or may not be related. Two weeks ago I pre-mixed a couple of buckets of salt water and added copper power. They sat for about 72 hours, one heated and circulating, one unheated with no pump. When I entered the room where the quarantine and buckets were there was a strong smell of ammonia, almost like there was a neglected cat box in the room. It was coming from the bucket with the heater, pump that was mixed with copper power. Very strong smell. The aquarium never smelled that way. I dumped out that water, cleaned the buckets, pump and heater. I stopped letting the copper power sit in the buckets, but that really does not seem like it should be a problem, if it were it would be a problem in the tank as well. Maybe unrelated, may not be, but this water change had no copper power and did not smell at all. This water was mixed in a 20 gallon trash can that I purchased recently. I guess one never knows what may have been in it, I did clean it before using it, but I guess there still could have been something in it that bothered the fish.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I'm very particular about buckets that I use to mix salt - I only use those that are safe for potable water or food contact (like white Rubbermaid ones). Some of the others contain mold inhibitors and plasticizers.

The ammonia smell is interesting; copper power and coppersafe are bonded with an amine (ammonia). It will give a false positive of about 0.5 ppm on most ammonia tests. There is some suggestion that adding a strong reducing agent (dechor, formalin, etc.) can break the copper-amine bond, leaving a toxic amount of free copper present. I've never heard of anyone smelling ammonia from that though.

 

[overhead]

I did not use Prime or any water conditioner because of what you said about it in the quarantine thread. I thought it might have been contaminated salt, but it did not happen with the other buckets. I really should have done an ammonia test on it, but instead I just dumped it. It almost had to be contamination from *something*, I just don't know what. Dogs can't get in the room I have the tank, but I do have lots of plants in there and some small containers of fertilizer and other items but they are sealed and on the other side of the room. I am going to toss all the buckets I used in there and I will start using the trashcan as a trashcan. The tank I will likely keep, I just need to clean it out well with citric acid. I have some food safe 5 gallon buckets...but they are full of food. I will order some more. If you have ever pulled up carpet that has been peed on repeatedly by cats, the smell was that strong.

 

[overhead]

Unionized ammonia measured at .005. Copper is .54. I suppose I am going to have to let it go, not sure what else I can test for. I will just throw all the buckets and the rest of the salt away. If anyone has an idea about what else I might test let me know.

 

[commod0re]

take a sample to the LFS for testing?

 

[overhead]

take a sample to the LFS for testing?

I will save some of the water and talk to the LFS about it if I can get down there, I am leaving town this weekend so that might not happen. My guess is they will not see anything in the normal tests they run. I could get an ICP done, not sure it is worth it. It was a bit of drama last night for sure, stressed the fish out big time. Hopefully they do okay, not eating much today. We will see how it goes.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I will save some of the water and talk to the LFS about it if I can get down there, I am leaving town this weekend so that might not happen. My guess is they will not see anything in the normal tests they run. I could get an ICP done, not sure it is worth it. It was a bit of drama last night for sure, stressed the fish out big time. Hopefully they do okay, not eating much today. We will see how it goes.

I don’t think an ICP will solve the problem for you. If it’s a toxin, it is likely an organic compound that ICP will just report as “carbon”. Even the copper result wont tell you anything as ICP cannot tell you if the copper is the toxic free phase or if it is still safely bonded with a chelator.

 

[overhead]

I don’t think an ICP will solve the problem for you. If it’s a toxin, it is likely an organic compound that ICP will just report as “carbon”. Even the copper result wont tell you anything as ICP cannot tell you if the copper is the toxic free phase or if it is still safely bonded with a chelator.

I guess I will just have to let it go. I will throw everything away that had anything to do with that tank other than the tank. I assume I can scrub that down and get anything on it out.

 

[overhead]

The fish seem fine in the DT. I would like to know what happened, but I likely will not. It is completely possible the fish freaked out due to the water change and that caused me to freak out and over-react. I still plan on QT'ing fish in the future, but I likely will take a different approach to water changes. I believe I had enough media from my DT tanks, it was very porous filter material, they type I assume is generally used in large outdoor fish ponds, that had been in my DT tank for more than a month. The adjustments will be keep everything away from the tank, everything being bottles of chemicals, test kits, etc. I will do all testing in another room. I need to be a little more organized with how I mix water, store it and add copper. I was always rushing around doing multiple things and that could have led to a mistake. No more than 20% water changes at a time unless absolutely required. Thanks to the folks that answered my questions here.

 

[MnFish1]

Hanna Copper tester or checker or whatever the proper term is. I was testing daily and testing all water before I added it during changes. The quarantine was at 2.45 this morning. I did not check the copper level in the water I was using tonight because I did not add any copper to it.

I would make sure your copper levels are really what they say. That said - I don't think copper toxicity occurs so rapidly - unless it's extreme. You should be adding the copper concentration of the water that you take out. I,e, why did you not add copper to the water. depending on the level - that may 'reset' your QT clock - depending on how much water was removed/added

 

[overhead]

I would make sure your copper levels are really what they say. That said - I don't think copper toxicity occurs so rapidly - unless it's extreme. You should be adding the copper concentration of the water that you take out. I,e, why did you not add copper to the water. depending on the level - that may 'reset' your QT clock - depending on how much water was removed/added

I did not add copper because I was at the end of the 30 day copper treatment. I was intentionally trying to bring the copper down so I could start the Prazi/observation period. I know my LFS drops the water level down pretty low once a week and does a large water change on all their tanks, I did not think it would do any harm. Still not sure what caused this, unfortunately. All I can do is make the changes I mentioned and be more careful around the tank and mixing buckets.

I was/am using a Hanna checker for copper levels, not sure how else I can verify it. The lowest level I measured in the QT tank during the 30 day period was 2.35. I was pretty diligent about testing any water for copper level before adding it to the QT to avoid the levels dropping too much.