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Some interesting points going on I have to say.
Some interesting points going on I have to say.
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Well said! I still feel the loss of every creature that dies prematurely (my fault) under my care. Even if they die at a ripe old age I still feel the loss of them. I have a little section in my yard where they get buried.I think the reason why fishless cycles are so popular is due to the fact that our hobby is frequently inhumane. People buy fish thinking they'll live a year, throw em in some tap water and do very little maintenance and what do you know, they die within a year.
Folks on this site tend to be more passionate about the fish / marine life that they care for. Even if they don't have the same connection that they'd have to a dog, they still take the well-being and health of their wet critters to heart. If there's even a chance that you put undue stress on an animal by rushing to introduce them to a tank, most of us will take the precaution to avoid said stress.
I feel like it's like putting up a fence so you can let your dog outside to run around rather than just tying it to a tree - do they both work? Sure. Is the dog with the full back yard to run around in having a better time? Absolutely.
jumping *to* .07, from thousandths ppm typical running conversion rates, is exactly why I love seneye data. Seneye inputs are rare, two total here. Thank you
tenths ppm doesn’t happen in reefing for anyone. hundredths is the highest, a few hours, never sticks for days, seneye data is little snippets of truth due to the sheer number of devices reporting this conversion rate, which matches oceanic data. I think it’s hard to state seneye is inaccurate, and api and Red Sea are accurate. we can not get titration kits in the thousandths, so they report falsely.
Here’s a qt that has been setup for a week. I have 3 anthias and one orange storm clown in it. I only started copper yesterday but you can see nh3 have a uptick from when my auto feeder activates, fish poo then goes back to zero within a few hours.Does your current setup run in the thousandths ppm daily, as an average, so curious to know
we have a few seneye reading threads where they report .02-.05 as the lowest setting, and I now wonder if low pH is driving those numbers, forgot to ask about their pH at the time of report, nice call. Seneye corporate responded in one thread and confirmed the meter was bad, because no running reef should be even in the hundredths ppm conversion range and this one was stuck months at hundredths level in a reef filled with rocks and sand, which never permit sustained free ammonia above thousandths on majority of seneye machines and logs online. This exchange is one of the few where we will get true nh3 data, so I’m milking it for all usable details. Reef cycles do not stall, it’s a massive fallacy at work causing us to pay cash into the bottle bac machine long after cycle completion.
That’s classifiedWhere have you been all of Brandon's life, Lakai?
i'm not saying at all that these conversion tables are necessarily accurate, how can they be? as you have stated our test kits aren't necessarily accurate, prone to user error, or poor test practices. but it the person reporting an ammonia spike or stalled cycle understood the difference between nh3 and nh4+ and that these test kits measure total ammonia and not just nh3 (the dangerous one) then there would probably be much less panic.@Biglew11
I have this question: has any non seneye ammonia test taker ever known what their nh3 was? How can they, the TAN conversion chart brings them only to hundredths?
the api, salifert, nyos, red sea kits measures spikes, but not running rates? Their indicator cards don’t read thousandths, imagine discerning shades of green to get something that accurate
the hobby has been impacted by common ammonia readings never being validated by the apparently predictable seneye machine.
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one hundred percent of procedural rules written for us to follow are based solely on the assumption our common test kits are reliable
nitrite isn’t zero. It has a conversion decimal too, but who cares what that is heh (chloride channel neutralization, RHF article, nobody cares about nitrite nowadays)
How many cycles are reported stalled due to nitrite readings on api?
The impact of pre seneye cycle rules is we’re on the needy buyer list for cycle help products, kept in the dark about what’s really going on, and only MACNA conventions get reefs that start on time, for us forum folks we buy bottled bac but still get to wait out the old school month cycle charts.
All reef tank cycling rules need to be rewritten, and anyone who has posted a video or a thread saying reef cycles stall can’t be on the rules board.
we want the type of cycle science that matches today’s actual reef tank readings, which match oceanic readings, to bring validity. We do not want the cycling rules that leaves thousands feeling stalled, buying up more items to unstall, when they were at thousandths ppm the whole darn time.
Jury:
if this was a reef court of law and you were instructed by the judge to factor only data and not my presentation style, have we established reasonable doubt that fish in cycling harms fish? If no, can we get some sort of test reading, pics of unhappy fish, or thread with outcome predictions, or digital readings, or post links of any kind whatsover showing the harm? Could you produce a veterinarian or other professional as a witness if you can’t get links
i'm not a chemist or scientist either from reading mostly here on r2r and general google searches it's my understanding (don't know if it's true or not) that there is always some form of ammonia in a tank, but with a mature biological filter its usually processed out faster than we can measure it, again this is just from reading. i don't know how all this chemistry works, but at least when i measure something in my tank I like to understand what it is that I am measuring.well said. I dont own any ammonia test kit nor have I, and dont understand chemistry very much.
only web post patterns get me the info... its interesting to try detail truths for us in the hobby one way or another. I really like bottle bac but loathe its use for unsticking cycles, strange dichotomy there agreed.
*the bottles need some sort of indicator on the strip that interacts w them in suspension and states if they're live or not
or a part on the bottle you squeeze before use, it releases an nh3 vial/breaks, side indicator spikes showing entry, goes down in 24 hours, can use to fish-in cycle safely/ boom I retire from selling cable into reefing bliss.
Why do we feel it necessary to rush through a cycle (fish or fishless) knowing we are starting what should be the enjoyment of a long term hobby? We should be reiterating the need for patience not rapidity.
My experience. I've never used 'ammonia cycling'. Ive never waited 'months for a cycle'. Ive never done a lot of the stuff that the 'experts' recommend. Why - is that because Im a rogue? No - its because from a scientific perspective - a lot of the conventional wisdom (to me) - doesnt make complete sense. Putting a clown fish or 2 in a 50 gallon aquarium - will not cause death or injury to the fish. adding fish slowly to the tank after a bit - will not cause injury or death to them (to me most of this relates to people putting a blue angel a queen angel - and huma trigger into a 20 gallon tank - and wondering what happened.the reason its important not to claim fish-in cycling + bottle bac burns fish is because that uses misinformation to manage, don’t be caught by tomorrow’s measurement tools making inaccurate calls today.
We explore here four points:
-can people make nh3 measurements accurately then subsequently advise what cycles are doing? We are all quite confident in our test kits...resolved on all readings and we make rules based on confidence. If the readings are wrong, our rules have been wrong, that’s embarrassing when future generations look up our advice and see we didn’t know what bacteria do but made some nice guesses for the gaps in ability to measure nh3 accurately.
-do fish in cycles using bottle bac harm fish, can you discern this status without any ammonia testing?
-what are the down sides to fish-in cycles with bottle bac, even if not ammonia harmed?
-if someone wants to FIC for reasons of not wanting to wait, or perhaps it’s a hospital tank to recover from a cracked display, how can they pull it off ethically?
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Anytime someone adds bottle bac + fish on day one, we tell them unequivocally that they're harming fish/ammonia burned
I think that's false, and that ammonia burned fish act a certain way. so lets find a way to prove one way or another and end the false info spreading.
So if you've ever posted to another person that fish-in cycles are harming fish, how do you know? groupthink?
If we took an ammonia reading during the fish-in cycle and it showed some free ammonia yet the fish behaved well, fed well, swam normally, didnt die after days in the claimed burn condition, and we can find the same test kit indicating free ammonia in other fully matured reefs, does that mean fish-in cycling burns fish?
additional questions before anyone can prove anything here: whats the maximum nh3 typical clownfish and gobies can tolerate in marine systems?
are the ammonia testers we use in the hobby able to reliably measure those levels?
Once you find those answers, test without fish. Use liquid ammonium chloride, a tester for ammonia, some bottle bac. If your nh3 reaches what you found to be ld50 lethality levels, fish-in cycling harms fish.
Fish-in cycling harms disease vectoring, for sure. But burning animals? are these burnt? You can burn a three hundred dollar anemone and it still acts normal for half a year?
Bio-spira works great
I just started a new tank a little over a week ago. I started with all dry rock and new sand. I added a bottle of Bio-Spira and put fish and coral the same day. Never saw any ammonia and fish and coral seem healthy.www.reef2reef.com