Options for Combating a Dino Outbreak

Thanks Randy. What would be the order of priority for removing the Bio Media vs the Algae Scrubber? I am assuming I don't want to remove all but maybe. Thanks.

Media first, IMO.
 
Thanks for the replies. I am a little confused / unsure about something...

I local guy I know who maintains tanks and has for 30+ years stopped by and looked the tank over and he said my tank is too dirty and it needs a deep cleaning. He did a 25 gallon water change and cleaned the sand bed pretty heavily. He said there is way too much fish and food waste built up in the sand bed and in the rocks. He also said I need better flow through the rocks and the tanks. He thinks this is the cause of my issues. It is true that I have not been cleaning my sand bed. I don't really do a lot of water changes but for a while I did do ~ 10% auto water change per week. Tank is ~ 3 years old.

So, can it be true that my water tests show very low nutrients but the tank is still dirty and needs to be cleaned better?

I would consider this guy to be "old school".

Thanks!
 
You have now stumbled into the fact that every tank can be ran differently and still show successes, haha.

So, can your tank be dirty and low nutrients? I guess so if you're in the camp that believes detritus is inert, and if it is inert, you don't need to remove it. Is your tank loaded with corals taking up nutrients or is only algae taking up those nutrients? The latter will seem to be the "dirty" tank even though nutrients will be low in both scenarios.

You need to beat the "dirty" scenario by adding coral or beneficial bacteria to out compete, but you're still going to have to get nutrients up to support that process.

I have a hard time believing you have too many fish if your nutrients are bottomed out.

It's probably true that you need more flow, but that depends on the coral type too and what they can actually handle. You could move the aquascape around to allow for more flow in between the rocks. I recently start cementing/glueing my aquascapes together to get this flow, and it's much better.

I wouldn't do water changes or siphoning anything until nutrients climb to NO3 being 10+ and PO4 being .10+ to allow your beneficial bacteria to grow.
 
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I have been feeding a lot and my tank was/is pretty full of fish poop and uneaten food bits. (My tank maintenance friend says over feeding.). I have been feeding frozen food 3 times per day along with one sheet of nori per day so there are plenty of nutrient inputs. So something must be consuming those nutrients. The display has little to no green algae. Just brown algae and then I have the nutrient export tools I mentioned above. and I am down to one hammer coral and 2 small anemones. So it seems like either the Dinos / Diatoms / whatever the brown stuff is or my sump are/ is consuming all of the nutrients.

Fish are...

Powder Brown
Flame Fin Tang
One Spot Foxface
Clownfish pair.

I took Randy's advise and removed the media. I also turned one of the algae scrubber lights off so we will see if the nutrients climb.

Thanks.
 
I generally have not heard of anyone getting dinos from tank too dirty. Could be it happens, but its not the normal issue.
 
Thanks for the replies. I am a little confused / unsure about something...

I local guy I know who maintains tanks and has for 30+ years stopped by and looked the tank over and he said my tank is too dirty and it needs a deep cleaning. He did a 25 gallon water change and cleaned the sand bed pretty heavily. He said there is way too much fish and food waste built up in the sand bed and in the rocks. He also said I need better flow through the rocks and the tanks. He thinks this is the cause of my issues. It is true that I have not been cleaning my sand bed. I don't really do a lot of water changes but for a while I did do ~ 10% auto water change per week. Tank is ~ 3 years old.

So, can it be true that my water tests show very low nutrients but the tank is still dirty and needs to be cleaned better?

I would consider this guy to be "old school".

Thanks!
This advice is spot on and you need to do exactly what he says…. aquariums are dirty despite what hobby test kit read. Low nutrients don’t exist in 99.99% without the aid of super charging bacteria.
Stop following the “new school” experts and their hobby test kits.
 
I generally have not heard of anyone getting dinos from tank too dirty. Could be it happens, but it’s not the normal issue.
In aquariums not sure, but in the real world dinoflagellate blooms only occur with increased nutrients, ie. too dirty.

IMG_1135.png
 
In aquariums not sure, but in the real world dinoflagellate blooms only occur with increased nutrients, ie. too dirty.

IMG_1135.png
How does that explain tanks that have 3" of detritus in the sump and grow SPS like crazy? The older the tank the higher the nutrients usually. The older the tank the less algae there is.
 
How does that explain tanks that have 3" of detritus in the sump and grow SPS like crazy? The older the tank the higher the nutrients usually. The older the tank the less algae there is.
Not sure your question, however it is established science what causes dinoflagellates blooms and “Red Tides”.
Regarding growing SPS like crazy. My tank is clean and everything is growing like crazy so imo that is the way to go….
IMG_1808.jpeg
 
Not sure your question, however it is established science what causes dinoflagellates blooms and “Red Tides”.
Regarding growing SPS like crazy. My tank is clean and everything is growing like crazy so imo that is the way to go….
My tank has always had high nutrients, and it too grows SPS well. I would rather have more nutrients in the tank than trying to always keep up from starving corals to death. The ocean is quite different than the glass boxes we keep. Having ULN is too risky in my opinion since we can't compete with the natural fluxes of readily available proteins like the ocean can.
 
My tank has always had high nutrients, and it too grows SPS well. I would rather have more nutrients in the tank than trying to always keep up from starving corals to death. The ocean is quite different than the glass boxes we keep. Having ULN is too risky in my opinion since we can't compete with the natural fluxes of readily available proteins like the ocean can.
There are different ways to operate. However, Hobby testing as a measuring device for cleanliness is an incomplete picture. R. Ross aquarium has high nutrients but it is extremely clean and well maintained; and while it doesn’t have a lot of challenging corals it is an amazing display.
 
Not sure your question, however it is established science what causes dinoflagellates blooms and “Red Tides”.

Yes, but not necessarily in the way you intend to claim.

Studies also clearly show that dinos outperform competitors (diatoms) in some low nutrient situations. It's a complex dance between various competitors and various types of nutrients.

https://hero.epa.gov/reference/742154/

Competition of three bloom-forming marine phytoplankton (diatom Skeletonema costatum, and dinoflagellates Prorocentrum minimum and Alexandrium tamarense) was studied through a series of multispecies cultures with different nitrate (NaNO3) and phosphate (NaH2PO4) levels and excess silicate to interpret red tide algae succession. S. costatum outgrew the other two dinoflagellates in nitrate and phosphate replete cultures with 10 mu mol/L Na2SiO3. Under nitrate limited (8.82 mu mol/L NaNO3) conditions, the growth of S. costatum was also dominant when phosphate concentrations were from 3.6 to 108 mu mol/L. Cell density of the two dinoflagellates only increased slightly, to less than 400 and 600 cells/mL, respectively. Cell density of S. costatum decreased with time before day 12, and then increased to 4000 cells/mL (1.5 mg/L dry biomass) at NaNO3 concentrations between 88.2 and 882 mu mol/L with limited phosphate (0.36 mu mol/L NaH2PO4) levels. In addition, P minimum grew well with a maximal cell density of 1690-2100 cells/mL (0.5-0.6 mg/L dry biomass). Although S. costatum initially grew fast, its cell density decreased quickly with time later in the growth phase and the two dinoflagellates were dominant under the nitrate-limited and high nitrate conditions with limited phosphate. These results indicated that the diatom was a poor competitor compared to the two dinoflagellates under limited phosphate; however, it grew well under limited nitrate when growth of the dinoflagellates was near detection limits.
 
Yes, but not necessarily in the way you intend to claim.

Studies also clearly show that dinos outperform competitors (diatoms) in some low nutrient situations. It's a complex dance between various competitors and various types of nutrients.

https://hero.epa.gov/reference/742154/

Competition of three bloom-forming marine phytoplankton (diatom Skeletonema costatum, and dinoflagellates Prorocentrum minimum and Alexandrium tamarense) was studied through a series of multispecies cultures with different nitrate (NaNO3) and phosphate (NaH2PO4) levels and excess silicate to interpret red tide algae succession. S. costatum outgrew the other two dinoflagellates in nitrate and phosphate replete cultures with 10 mu mol/L Na2SiO3. Under nitrate limited (8.82 mu mol/L NaNO3) conditions, the growth of S. costatum was also dominant when phosphate concentrations were from 3.6 to 108 mu mol/L. Cell density of the two dinoflagellates only increased slightly, to less than 400 and 600 cells/mL, respectively. Cell density of S. costatum decreased with time before day 12, and then increased to 4000 cells/mL (1.5 mg/L dry biomass) at NaNO3 concentrations between 88.2 and 882 mu mol/L with limited phosphate (0.36 mu mol/L NaH2PO4) levels. In addition, P minimum grew well with a maximal cell density of 1690-2100 cells/mL (0.5-0.6 mg/L dry biomass). Although S. costatum initially grew fast, its cell density decreased quickly with time later in the growth phase and the two dinoflagellates were dominant under the nitrate-limited and high nitrate conditions with limited phosphate. These results indicated that the diatom was a poor competitor compared to the two dinoflagellates under limited phosphate; however, it grew well under limited nitrate when growth of the dinoflagellates was near detection limits.
Yes, I am not debating dinoflagellate ability to survive and outcompete competitors in low nutrients. However I was referring to “blooms” and Red Tides. The dinoflagellate K. Brevis survives far off shore but it only produces a Red Tide when it reaches high nutrient waters close to shore as in the picture I posted. Otherwise K. brevis, without abundant nutrients, is benign.
IMG_1818.png
*
 
I appreciate all of the replies and discussion on this topic. As someone said above, there are obviously different ways to be successful in this hobby. I have been in the saltwater hobby for 15 years and I still feel like a newbie. Or maybe I know just enough to be dangerous. LOL. It likely makes sense for me to choose the approach where I can get some in person support from someone who knows a lot more than I do.

@Randy Holmes-Farley ,
I asked AI about the Polyp Labs Media I just removed from my system and here is what it had to say...

"That Polyplab Genesis Rock Power Rack is an enormous amount of biological surface area. BRS says each of the four Genesis Rocks provides over 1,000 m² / 11,000 ft² of surface area, and the rack is specifically designed to move water through that media.

For your roughly 140–150-gallon system, that's substantial additional biological capacity. BRS even states that each block can support around 350 gallons, although I'd treat that as a manufacturer sizing claim rather than a literal filtration requirement. "

It sounds like I may have been over processing dissolved nutrients. And maybe that condition brought on the Dinos. It will be interesting to see how that changes over the next few days. I will report back on this point.

Thanks!
 
Not sure your question, however it is established science what causes dinoflagellates blooms and “Red Tides”.
Regarding growing SPS like crazy. My tank is clean and everything is growing like crazy so imo that is the way to go….
My tank has always had high nutrients, and it too grows SPS well. I would rather have more nutrients in the tank than trying to always keep up from starving corals to death. The ocean is quite different than the glass boxes we keep. Having ULN is too risky in my opinion since we can't compete with the natural fluxes of readily available proteins like the ocean can.
Same for me. My acro and SPS are growing like crazy with great color and PE and my nitrates are around 50 and phosphates around 0.15.

The only time I have had dinos is when my nutrients bottomed out and I wasn’t dosing fast enough to get them back up (tried going slower so as not to to overdose or raise them too fast).

I would try Dr Tim’s method before DinoM personally. I had mixed results with DinoM in terms of impact to coral. Dr Tim’s has worked for me in the past. There was only one time it didn’t and that was when I couldn’t raise my nutrients fast enough.
 
I am not sure how this happened but I have been battling a Dino outbreak for several months. I am currently trying Silicate dosing and even though I see a lot of Diatoms in the sand, rock and glass, the microscope still shows a lot of Dinos in the samples I have taken from the sand...

I don't have any corals right now. I have lost the few that I had. Also, the tank is about 3 years old.

So, I was thinking about this step...

Removing most of my sand and replacing it with some Live sand from Tampa bay Saltwater. Any thoughts on if that would likely help me get rid of the Dino outbreak?

Thanks.

Tank is 5'x2'x22". ~150G total water volume. I have a good skimmer, roller mat, Algae scrubber and UV. My guess is I ran the UV too much and that created an environment for the Dinos to grow. it also started when I added a few pieces of Dry rock to my established aquarium.
No. Do not do that. Dino will come back. And stop dosing po4. They just fuel dino.
My method has always worked for me: black out +UVC at same time for 3 days. Its important to not just do one but combine as uv is the therapy, and black out just to get them into watercolumn.

I have tested everything and nothing have been working for me except this method that so far in my cases have had a success rate of 100%. Another good thing is that its fast method.

Jonas
 
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Need to pull a sample of dinos and use a microscope to reference the Dino id thread. Or throw the kitchen sink approach and try all methods
 
I am not sure how this happened but I have been battling a Dino outbreak for several months. I am currently trying Silicate dosing and even though I see a lot of Diatoms in the sand, rock and glass, the microscope still shows a lot of Dinos in the samples I have taken from the sand...

I don't have any corals right now. I have lost the few that I had. Also, the tank is about 3 years old.

So, I was thinking about this step...

Removing most of my sand and replacing it with some Live sand from Tampa bay Saltwater. Any thoughts on if that would likely help me get rid of the Dino outbreak?

Thanks.

Tank is 5'x2'x22". ~150G total water volume. I have a good skimmer, roller mat, Algae scrubber and UV. My guess is I ran the UV too much and that created an environment for the Dinos to grow. it also started when I added a few pieces of Dry rock to my established aquarium.
No. Do not do that. Dino will come back. And stop dosing po4. They just fuel dino.
My method has always worked for me: black out +UVC at same time for 3 days. Its important to not just do one but combine as uv is the therapy, and black out just to get them into watercolumn.

I have tested everything and nothing have been working for me except this method that so far in my cases have had a success rate of 100%. Another good thing is that its fast method.

Jonas
Blackout UV only works on ostreopsis

For prorocentrum uv slows it down but you need to siphon it out with a 1 micron sock

Amphidinium can be outcompeted by diatoms. So dose silicates.
 
No. Do not do that. Dino will come back. And stop dosing po4. They just fuel dino.
My method has always worked for me: black out +UVC at same time for 3 days. Its important to not just do one but combine as uv is the therapy, and black out just to get them into watercolumn.

I have tested everything and nothing have been working for me except this method that so far in my cases have had a success rate of 100%. Another good thing is that its fast method.

Jonas
I tried Blackout. And I have a UV that I am running. After the blackout, the sand was clean. And then they came back. The sand does still mostly clear at night so I assume they are in the water column. But that didn't work.
 

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