ORP very low and PH dropping

[robsoninc]

I have a new 8 week old 75Gal reef aquarium setup that went through the startup cycle, I used Seachem Stability to help. Everything looked great, have some coral, snails, hermit crabs and a couple gobbys. I have an Apex Neptune and Titan setup. I'm not dosing just checking the levels and seeing how things are running.

I have the metrics attached. My ORP and PH just crashed. I use the Apex probes.

I'm running a sock filter, refugium that's empty, media reactor and protein skimmer.

My skimmer isn't catching a lot but there isn't a lot of waste to skim. I recently had a case of Detritus that I scrubbed and vacuumed out with a couple separate 1/3 water changes. I used Seachem Pristine to help clear it up. It's 90% gone now.

I do have to use tap water.. Right now I can't get a reverse osmosis filtration setup. I used Seachem Prime to remove the chlorine. I'm using *instant ocean salt.

So I don't know. I thought I was over cleaning so I stopped the skimmer for a day and it didn't help.

Any idea why the ORP is down to 11 and the PH is dropping? Thanks

 

[robsoninc]

 

[reefluvrr]

pH will flucuate about 0.2 between day and night. Your pH looks to be in a good range still.
I am not sure about how your ORP can be that low. Did you clean your filter sock with bleach or something like that?
What did you add to your tank on July 8th that caused your ORP to suddenly drop?
I find when I add bacteria additives to my tank my ORP and pH does drop, but not by the amount shown in your tank.

 

[I’ma tempermental coral]

So first let me ask has the orp probe been plugged in this entire 8 weeks? Or was that recent? Second binding agents in things like prime will obliterate your orp. Not sure about the pristine I’ve never even looked at it let alone researched it so I can’t tell you what that may do sorry. But reverting back to first question, if the probe is somewhat new it’s not strange to see large swings in orp readings for some time while it settles in.

 

[jccaclimber]

I’ve seen few reef tanks with a stable ORP under 200, and I don’t think I e ever seen knee under 150. I’ve also never personally monitored the ORP of a reef that used Prime.m, not that there is anything wrong with it. I have used it in reefs, just not one with an ORP probe. Pretty soon it’ll go negative and you’ll have a perpetual motion machine on hand. Ok, kidding aside since it doesn’t work that way, your pH looks fine. Since all of your inhabitants look fine I would absolutely not do anything drastic.
First guess is something to do with the Prime. Are you on the upper end of the dose? What happened on the evening of July 8 when it first dove?
Second guess is bad data.
Either way, no drastic short term actions are called for unless your animals become unhappy.

 

[robsoninc]

Thanks for the reply.

I didn't add bleach to clean them but I was/am washing them in the washing machine. From what you've said I'm that could easily add cleaning residue.

I don't recall what happened on the 8th. But from now on I'm going to keep notes on any significant changes.

Prime.. I add it to every water change. I was concerned about the tap water, maybe I should be as much and try to get the filter as soon as possible. (Picture attached)

I got the Apex Neptune 9 days ago. The probe out of the box wasn't calibrated but I read it didn't need to be. Any idea what to expect as it's adjusting to the setup?

June 8th might have been when I started to remove the detritus. 4-5 sock changes with a 1/3 water changed a day.

Recap stop using Prime - controlled change
Stop using house hold appliances to cleam

.

 

[I’ma tempermental coral]

Thanks for the reply.

I didn't add bleach to clean them but I was/am washing them in the washing machine. From what you've said I'm that could easily add cleaning residue.

I don't recall what happened on the 8th. But from now on I'm going to keep notes on any significant changes.

Prime.. I add it to every water change. I was concerned about the tap water, maybe I should be as much and try to get the filter as soon as possible. (Picture attached)

I got the Apex Neptune 9 days ago. The probe out of the box wasn't calibrated but I read it didn't need to be. Any idea what to expect as it's adjusting to the setup?

June 8th might have been when I started to remove the detritus. 4-5 sock changes with a 1/3 water changed a day.

Recap stop using Prime - controlled change
Stop using house hold appliances to cleam

.

It’s not calibrating the probe. For the first 2 weeks my orp probe was all over the place. Anywhere from sub 100 all the way up into ozonizer territories. As my ph was stable and after research of my own I learned it takes some time for the prob itself to stabilize and show correct readings within margins of error. As for the prime in a reef tank with an orp probe. I have first hand watched my orp hit the floor from a solid 300-315 orp observed over a period longer than a month to sub 200 directly after adding a small dose of prime after my then 3 year old son thought it would be fun to “throw pennies in the wishing well” I.E. my sump! Taking a broad spectrum approach many things were added to the system to ensure no harm would come to coral or inverts in the system, prime being one of them. After seeing the orp sink during this situation, over the next coming months I tested each addition during the emergency one by one. The only thing that replicated the sink in orp was prime. After finding that and the research done in the mean time namely posts by @Randy Holmes-Farley I was more than certain my personal experience with Prime was it throwing the results for orp off. That is not to say it is not reef safe! It just sends your orp reading low. Adding a reducing agent to a system monitoring oxidizers is going to show less oxidizes.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Unless you added something when the ORP drop, it is testing error. It doesn't spike down like that.

 

[reefluvrr]

It does take time for the ORP probe to settle down. That more likely explain the drastic change in value.
Use the notes feature in your apex so you look back later if you see any other future value change any parameters.

 

[robsoninc]

Ok. I'll get a couple more filter socks and see if that helps. If it doesn't I'll see about replacing the probe. The Apex is new so this shouldn't be an issue.. famous last words.

 

[jccaclimber]

Using washing machines to wash filter socks is a standard practice. Some use soap, others do not. When I occasionally do that (I’m not a regular sock user) I use a small amount of soap, but an extra rinse.
Bleach likes to stick around, but if you can’t smell it then you are typically safe. Normally I advise some Prime, but I might have to
rethink that.
Given than a non zero number of reef taNo’s use tap water and Prime, many display no issues, and ORP and reef tanks is not well understood, I’m still not mandating a change here.
There are good reasons to use RODI instead of treated tap, but that’s a separate discussion.
Specifically how much Prime are you adding to how much water?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Ok. I'll get a couple more filter socks and see if that helps. If it doesn't I'll see about replacing the probe. The Apex is new so this shouldn't be an issue.. famous last words.

I would explore electrical interference. Specifically, what nearby or touching the water might have turned on or off at exactly the time the ORP reading spiked downward.

 

[robsoninc]

Using washing machines to wash filter socks is a standard practice. Some use soap, others do not. When I occasionally do that (I’m not a regular sock user) I use a small amount of soap, but an extra rinse.
Bleach likes to stick around, but if you can’t smell it then you are typically safe. Normally I advise some Prime, but I might have to
rethink that.
Given than a non zero number of reef taNo’s use tap water and Prime, many display no issues, and ORP and reef tanks is not well understood, I’m still not mandating a change here.
There are good reasons to use RODI instead of treated tap, but that’s a separate discussion.
Specifically how much Prime are you adding to how much water?

I'll make a 5gal pale with 1ml. How much of the treated water I use at any given time varies.

I took the sock out to see how it did. I would say it didn't go up much but in relation to where it was it's doubled. (Picture Attached)

I'll keep it like this and see how it looks tonight and report back.

Re: Electricity. I'll double check but I believe the only thing near it is the cable to wave head. The cables only come in contact at the top of the tank as they are routed down. I originally had the probes in the same section of the sump where the Calcium and Media reactor are. I didnt read that it was a bad idea to put it there but I moved it up top to see if it helped. Not at all..

 

[jccaclimber]

I think that’s a double dose unless you have particularly high chloramines. Also, are you treating the water and letting it sit for several days? Prime supposedly only works for 48 hours, after which it releases everything bound back into the water. That said, I have no idea how long the tail on that breakdown curve actually is.

 

[reefluvrr]

Have you also tried running some carbon?
Carbon should help remove organics which then improve ORP. I don't t think you should replace your ORP pen yet. I agree that if it is a new pen, it takes time to settle. Did you also try rebooting your apex just to see what may happen to ORP number?

 

[robsoninc]

Have you also tried running some carbon?
Carbon should help remove organics which then improve ORP. I don't t think you should replace your ORP pen yet. I agree that if it is a new pen, it takes time to settle. Did you also try rebooting your apex just to see what may happen to ORP number?

I haven't tried Carbon yet, but will give it a shot. I have rebooted the Apex but I guess I could try a factory reset too. I don't have anything programmed so more is probably the best tito try.

 

[robsoninc]

A quick update. I replaced the sock with a new one and did a 1/4 water change.

 

[reefluvrr]

I replaced the sock with a new one and did a 1/4 water change.

I am not sure how conditioned tap water affects ORP. Have you tried checking your ORP in a bucket of of conditioned tap water to see what the ORP levels look like? Maybe the tap water has low ORP levels to begin with?

Maybe your city water had extra chemicals placed due to extra rain, tested and found higher levels of unwanted organics, etc?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I am not sure how conditioned tap water affects ORP. Have you tried checking your ORP in a bucket of of conditioned tap water to see what the ORP levels look like? Maybe the tap water has low ORP levels to begin with?

Maybe your city water had extra chemicals placed due to extra rain, tested and found higher levels of unwanted organics, etc?

I don't think tap water can ever have low ORP if it comes from a municipal water supply since the sterilization process is a high ORP process.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

A quick update. I replaced the sock with a new one and did a 1/4 water change.

I'm not sure why you are looking for anything more than a testing problem. I do not believe the ORP is as low as you report, and most definitely the ORP did not spike up and down on its own without adding some unusual chemicals exactly when the spikes happened.