Paltoxins

[fishyjoes]

Some say zoas are safe, some say they are not. Some of the people who say they are safe eventually get poisoned and quickly change their minds. I prefer to learn from their mistake rather than waiting for first hand experience.

 

[exnisstech]

Just treat them all as poisonous and wear PPE and problem solved. Sensitive individuals should probably wear PPE anytime theirs hands are in the tank.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Just treat them all as poisonous and wear PPE and problem solved. Sensitive individuals should probably wear PPE anytime theirs hands are in the tank.

Yes - there are plenty of pathogens aside from palytoxin. I used to do maintenance barehanded, and sometimes still do a bit. However, over the years I have progressed to mostly using shoulder length gloves. I have seen too many bad reactions to feel comfortable gloveless.

Meet my friend @Fish Styx when can explain what happens when your luck runs out. As I recall he is both lucky to still be with us and still have all of his appendages.

 

[SeattleReefer]

Hi everyone, is there any way to check if a zoanthid has a lot of palytoxins?

Doesn’t really matter, “a lot” vs “a little” it’s dangerous in any amount.

Like any signs I should check for when buying?

No

I know that bigger polyps usually means more toxin

Not true. While a larger polyp is a larger vessel that can potentially hold more, it doesn’t have any real life generality or correlation. Large polyp Zoa or paly could have barely any, and small polyp ones could be potent. Size is not really an indicator

but other than that I don’t know much.
Thanks in advance

It can’t be tested without going out to a lab. I can tell you in 25 years of reefing I am comfortable fragging and handling Zoa and palythoa bare hand; and washing up good afterwards. You need good discipline to be aware and take conscious steps to avoid subconscious things like rubbing your eyes or face or wear disposable gloves.

Thanks, I am going to purchase safety equipment soon.

 

[Dr. D]

Yikes. I’ve placed 10 or 12 zoas and I’ve never worn gloves. A couple of weeks ago I had a decent sized colony come off its plug… I just handled it while I placed glue under it (it’s doing great, BTW— seems to prefer being off the plug and right on the rock).

I’m not making a counter-argument… I’ll use gloves from now on. Guess I’ve been lucky, or else I just have friendly zoas.

 

[Submerge]

So I got a pair of armpit tickler gloves on the way. Do you folks just use disposable gloves when working around the tanks but not sticking your whole arm in? Like for fragging on the bench? Do people really wear face masks? I suppose if you are getting after it with a dremel that makes sense too.

 

[BeanAnimal]

So I got a pair of armpit tickler gloves on the way. Do you folks just use disposable gloves when working around the tanks but not sticking your whole arm in? Like for fragging on the bench? Do people really wear face masks? I suppose if you are getting after it with a dremel that makes sense too.

I would wear a full face shield when working with palythoa or zoanthids. They often squirt as they contract. Better safe than sorry. But also be aware of residuals on surfaces and tools. Kids, pets, and other unaware people can become very sick if you fail to cleanup properly.

I don't often wear gloves when handling coral or frag plugs outside of the tank unless there are cuts or scrapes on my hands. I almost always were shoulder length gloves when working in the tank.

 

[Fish Styx]

Yes - there are plenty of pathogens aside from palytoxin. I used to do maintenance barehanded, and sometimes still do a bit. However, over the years I have progressed to mostly using shoulder length gloves. I have seen too many bad reactions to feel comfortable gloveless.

Meet my friend @Fish Styx when can explain what happens when your luck runs out. As I recall he is both lucky to still be with us and still have all of his appendages.

I keep meaning to write an article about this and then forgetting. This may be the impetus that I need. Thanks, @BeanAnimal. I'm putting this on my to-do list for Wednesday.

I was one of those people that never thought twice about sticking my hands in the tank or handling livestock, rock, or dirty gear without any form of protection. Well, after thirty five years in the hobby, my luck absolutely ran out.

I was in the ICU for 8 days with a surgical team on standby to amputate my left arm due to a Vibrio Vulnificus infection. It took four IV and three oral antibiotics to get the infection under control, and that was only possible because of the quick action on my part and that of my medical team.

Anyway, like Bean said, I am extremely lucky, not only to still have my arm, but to be alive. It has been 22 months and I still have no feeling in the thumb and first two digits of my left hand due to the extensive nerve damage. It has wreaked havoc on my golf game...

I've been doing this for thirty seven years now, and my hands don't enter the tank or sump, and I don't handle anything without gloves. I also don't frag anything without wearing a respirator and eye protection.

We have enough bad habits in this hobby. Develop strong, positive ones around what is going to protect your health and your life. If anyone tells you anything to the contrary, wish them well and seek advice from somebody else, because if they are that reckless with their own lives, how can you trust how they treat the ones in their charge.

Namaste

 

[Dr. D]

Thank you for this sober warning— consider it heeded!

 

[smitten with ocean life]

wow @Fish Styx !! i never heard this! awful!

 

[Fish Styx]

wow @Fish Styx !! i never heard this! awful!

Definitely nightmare fuel.

 

[smitten with ocean life]

did you have palys that you feel like you got it from?

 

[BeanAnimal]

More than likely just vibrio in the water column and an open cut.

 

[smitten with ocean life]

eeks. well, ive got some that im hoping to remove when i do my tank transfer

 

[dank.reefer]

Palytoxin Poisoning is EXTREMELY RARE!! 171 cases in 14 years. I wouldn't worry to much about it.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1382668917302302

Ok, the LFS down the street from me has some known toxic AF paly's in one of there tanks. The employees there have all been poisoned by them at one point or another. I personally was poisoned by some palys in one of my tanks many years ago and I have a freind whos dog tasted the water in his fragging tub by accident and died a few hours later. In none of these cases were any palytoxin authorities contacted to add to your survey.

IMO, there are only 2 types of people that keep palys/zoas.... those who have been poisoned, and those who haven't been poisoned YET. If you are in the not yet category I hope for your sake you stay that way.

If you ever have the pleasure, palytoxin will make you a believer.

 

[TankYouVeryMuch]

Palytoxin Poisoning is EXTREMELY RARE!! 171 cases in 14 years. I wouldn't worry to much about it.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1382668917302302

Ok, the LFS down the street from me has some known toxic AF paly's in one of there tanks. The employees there have all been poisoned by them at one point or another. I personally was poisoned by some palys in one of my tanks many years ago and I have a freind whos dog tasted the water in his fragging tub by accident and died a few hours later. In none of these cases were any palytoxin authorities contacted to add to your survey.

IMO, there are only 2 types of people that keep palys/zoas.... those who have been poisoned, and those who haven't been poisoned YET. If you are in the not yet category I hope for your sake you stay that way.

If you ever have the pleasure, palytoxin will make you a believer.

I went ahead and got my poisoning event in early. First time adding ay corals to my tank, in fact. I was using gloves but water got in them anyway. Washed my hands well but apparently not well enough. Rubbed my eyes shortly after and noticed immediate burning, but told myself it was probably just salt or allergies. Felt kind of sick for a few days but I have chronic health issues so didn’t think too much about that at the time.

Two weeks later an optometrist diagnosed me with “likely Palytoxin exposure” and gave me prescription eyedrops. Two weeks later another visit and more drops. Now it’s months later and my eyes are still sensitive and sometimes water uncontrollably.

I am very lucky an it could have been far worse, but I was trying to take the normal precautions and wasn’t even doing anything risky. Just transferred a colony of what I was told was only zoas out of the bag and into my tank. I was avoiding Palythoa at the time because I had heard of some of the risks. Only later did I learn how prevalent and dangerous it truly is.

 

[E026672]

171 medically reported and confirmed cases. Apply any basic statistical model regarding reporting of things like this and the actual number is likely magnitudes higher.

Or, we can misuse a static to irresponsibly tell people to not to worry too much about it.

Palytoxin is literally one of the most deadly substances on earth and it is not a rarity in our corals and it can’t be tested for. Proper precautions should always be advised.

Hello, I’m from Kentucky and know VERY LITTLE about marine life and have little exposure to it. I was snorkeling in Turks and Caicos and found this coral which look unattached to anything so I took it which I now know was not smart. I noticed a green bubble on it. Put it in a bucket to soak with dawn soap and laundry detergent (all I had) over night. I didn’t touch it much (kept a towel between my hands and the coral), but it began to smell and get slimy. The next morning I put it back in the ocean. I felt deathly ill. Flu like symptoms and dizzy. Nausea, cold and hot, stomach pains. The next day I slept all day. Today (day 3) I’ve had waves of feeling bad but not as bad as I did the first day. Some tightness in my chest and a lump in my throat. I can’t find anyone who has had this with these symptoms and how long it lasted. Any help is appreciated!

 

[BeanAnimal]

I would immediately go to the emergency room or outpatient clinic and explain the situation and symptoms. Nobody here is going to be able to give you medical advice. Better safe than sorry.

 

[fryman]

There's misinformation in these forums and chicken-little type warnings that just don't hold water (forgive the pun). Palytoxin cannot be absorbed through the skin, it gets in the body by inhalation, ingestion, mucous membranes, and open wounds. If you understand the risk it's relatively easy to mitigate risk from palytoxin to very low levels.

With some exceptions, most of the palytoxin reports I've read about on internet forums are probably bacterial. People hear that palys & zoas are toxic, they have some adverse reaction from an aquarium and if there are zoas or palys present, people just assume.

The problem with these reports are that zoas and palys are one of, if not THE most common coral kept in this hobby. Nearly every saltwater tank has them, and yet reputable reports of poisonings from these animals are exceedingly rare. You can get sick from an aquarium that has palys or zoas in it without these animals having anything to do with it.

There are a number of nasties in saltwater that can get you. The biggest risk of serious injury or death is actually electrocution, yet it's very rare to see anyone warning about those dangers. Palys and zoas are just a more interesting thing to worry about, I guess.

You should always wear ppe when working in your tank, regardless of what livestock you keep. I agree there are risks in this hobby, and I think people should be made aware. But palytoxin is not anywhere close to the top risk we face here.

 

[BeanAnimal]

There's misinformation in these forums and chicken-little type warnings that just don't hold water (forgive the pun). Palytoxin cannot be absorbed through the skin,

The only misinformation here is your irresponsible assertion that the toxin can’t be absorbed through intact skin.

If you spend thirty seconds searching any number of scientific or medical journals, you will find both recorded cases and scientific studies indicating that you are wholly incorrect. Here is a quick list.

• Nordt et al., 2011 (Clin Toxicol) – Human case of systemic poisoning from intact skin contact with zoanthid coral.
• Deeds & Schwartz, 2010 (Toxicon) – Review noting dermal exposure causes poisoning in aquarium keepers.
• Hamade et al., 2015 (CDC MMWR) – Public health report; aquarium shop owner sickened after bare-hand handlingof zoanthids.
• Tartaglione et al., 2016 (Toxicon) – Hospitalized aquarist, systemic illness after bare-hand contact with Palythoa.
• Murphy & Charlton, 2017 (Environ Toxicol Pharmacol) – U.S. poison center data; multiple cases of dermal palytoxin exposure.
• Pelin et al., 2016, Review in PMC – lists multiple cutaneous exposure cases.

Moreover, given your demonstrable lack of information, the “chicken little” comment is ignorant and dangerous. Conflating unrelated risks to hand wave away the dangers of palytoxin is a straw man, as is arguing that incidents being under recognized and under reported equate to lack of danger… let alone dismissing those that are reported by trying to reframe them as “just bacterial.”

I find it dumbfounding that you, or anybody else finds the need to downplay the danger of something like this. To what end? Avoidance of your own misinformation bubble being burst? Protecting the misinformed mainstream narrative? Ego? What?