Paltoxins

[Dr. D]

Note to self: cancel any pending arguments with @BeanAnimal

Well said.

 

[fryman]

I'm saying that I think risk from Palytoxin is controllable and often overblown. Multiple people in this thread insinuated that everyone who owns zoas is doomed to eventually be poisoned. I do not agree.

I also think that regardless of whether or not you have zoas or palys in your own aquarium has little impact to your risk from the aquarium. You should wear ppe regardless and people who think they've controlled all the risk by avoiding zoas are being misled.

In other words, some people may read this thread, eliminate all zoas/palys from their tanks, then think they are now safe to go ahead and do whatever they want in the tank without any ppe. Palytoxin gets all the attention, but bacterial infections are much more common.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I'm saying that I think risk from Palytoxin is controllable and often overblown. Multiple people in this thread insinuated that everyone who owns zoas is doomed to eventually be poisoned. I do not agree.

Nobody here said “everyone with zoas is doomed.” You keep standing up straw man arguments to wave away well documented and verified risk that should be responsibly conveyed to anybody thst asks. It is that simple.

I also think that regardless of whether or not you have zoas or palys in your own aquarium has little impact to your risk from the aquarium. You should wear ppe regardless and people who think they've controlled all the risk by avoiding zoas are being misled.

Of course there are other risks in reefing — bacterial infection is one of them. That doesn’t make minimizing the acute danger of palytoxin any less irresponsible. You are misleading people while claiming you are preventing them from being misled. It is patently ridiculous.

PPE is certainly good advice, but pretending palytoxin is “overblown” when it is well documented that people have ended up in the ICU, with sick families, permanent injury, dead pets, or worse is reckless.

In other words, some people may read this thread, eliminate all zoas/palys from their tanks, then think they are now safe to go ahead and do whatever they want in the tank without any ppe. Palytoxin gets all the attention, but bacterial infections are much more common.

That is an absolutely ridiculous argument. You’ve twisted yourself into a logical knot. Downplaying one danger doesn’t make anyone safer, it just misleads people into a false sense of security. That makes zero sense and it is dangerous.

Likewise, I wouldn’t condone downplaying the risk of bacterial infection, or electrical safety if/when the subject comes up. Oddly, there are plenty of folks like yourself that are willing to downplay those risks just as bizarrely as you wish to do with palytoxin here.

 

[Bruttall]

Common Infections from Saltwater Aquariums​

Mycobacterium marinum​

• Description: This bacterium can cause skin infections in humans, often referred to as "fish tank granuloma."
• Transmission: Infection typically occurs when open wounds come into contact with contaminated water.
• Symptoms: It can lead to skin lesions that may appear as red, swollen bumps.

Burkholderia pseudomallei​

• Description: This bacterium is associated with melioidosis, a serious disease that can be life-threatening.
• Transmission: It can be contracted through contact with contaminated water, especially if there are cuts or abrasions on the skin.
• Symptoms: Symptoms can vary widely, including fever, cough, and skin infections.

Prevention Tips​

• Hygiene: Always wash hands thoroughly after handling fish or cleaning the aquarium.
• Protective Gear: Use gloves to cover any cuts or wounds when working with the aquarium.
• Monitoring: Keep an eye on any skin changes after exposure to aquarium water and seek medical advice if necessary.

These infections are rare, but taking precautions can help minimize the risk.

Search Assist

Palytoxin poisoning is relatively rare, with most cases occurring after handling certain types of corals, particularly zoanthids, in home aquariums. While specific incidents have been reported, awareness of the risks is limited among aquarium enthusiasts, making it important to take precautions when handling marine corals. sahealth.sa.gov.au ncceh.ca

Palytoxin Exposure from Saltwater Aquariums​

Frequency of Incidents​

Palytoxin poisoning is relatively rare but can occur in specific situations involving saltwater aquariums. Most cases arise from improper handling of zoanthid corals, which can contain this potent toxin.

• Reported Cases: Between 2000 and 2014, the U.S. Poison Data System recorded 171 cases of palytoxin exposure, primarily involving minor symptoms. However, some cases required intensive care.
  
  

  Palytoxin Exposure from Saltwater Aquariums​

  Frequency of Incidents​

  Palytoxin poisoning is relatively rare but can occur in specific situations involving saltwater aquariums. Most cases arise from improper handling of zoanthid corals, which can contain this potent toxin.
  • Reported Cases: Between 2000 and 2014, the U.S. Poison Data System recorded 171 cases of palytoxin exposure, primarily involving minor symptoms. However, some cases required intensive care.
  • Recent Incidents: There have been several notable incidents, including families being hospitalized after cleaning aquariums or handling corals. For example, in 2019, a family in England was poisoned after cleaning a tropical aquarium.

  Routes of Exposure​

  Exposure can occur through various means:
  • Inhalation: Aerosolized toxins can be released when corals are disturbed, leading to respiratory symptoms.
  • Skin Contact: Handling corals without protective gear can result in dermal absorption of the toxin.
  • Ingestion: Eating contaminated seafood is another route, though less common for aquarium hobbyists.

  Symptoms of Palytoxin Poisoning​

  Symptoms can appear rapidly and may include:
  • Flu-like symptoms: cough, fever, muscle pain
  • Gastrointestinal issues: nausea, vomiting, diarrhea
  • Respiratory distress: shortness of breath, wheezing

 

[Bruttall]

Ok, the LFS down the street from me has some known toxic AF paly's in one of there tanks. The employees there have all been poisoned by them at one point or another. I personally was poisoned by some palys in one of my tanks many years ago and I have a freind whos dog tasted the water in his fragging tub by accident and died a few hours later. In none of these cases were any palytoxin authorities contacted to add to your survey.

IMO, there are only 2 types of people that keep palys/zoas.... those who have been poisoned, and those who haven't been poisoned YET. If you are in the not yet category I hope for your sake you stay that way.

If you ever have the pleasure, palytoxin will make you a believer.

OK, what are the "Toxic AF" palys called? I want to research them, and did a Doctor diagnose all of them, or did they just get a little sick and claim it was palytoxin?

I keep a dozen different types of zoa's and a couple paly's including Toxic Green Grandis Paly. I am not saying you can't get Palytoxin Poisoning, but the risks are minimal if you take basic precautions. Also since Palytoxin Poisoning symptoms are really similar to the Common Cold, or COVID and I got to watch how that got Fear Porned all over, I am trying to offer a voice of reason to this discussion.

The reason Paly Poisoning is rare, but so many in the hobby CLAIM to have had it, is because the symptoms are common as well and easily mistaken for something else. IF YOU THINK YOU HAVE BEEN EXPOSED SEE A DOCTOR ASAP. duh!

Some of ya act like if you stick you hand in a zoa tank you will die and that is just not realistic at all.

Minimize your contact with zoa. if you have to touch the Polyps then wear surgical gloves. If you are Fragging them wear eye protection, try and keep them under water, this prevents the "juice" from squirting on you. Avoid sticking your hands in your tank if you have open wounds, scratches or cuts etc, though you are more likely to get a Bacterial Infection that way then Paly Poisoning.

Don't rub your face (same warning as for covid remember) but this is really common sense, Never rub your face if you think you have any contaminate on your hands. Probably shouldn't touch yourself either. Just Saying. Wash your hands/arms with anti bacterial soap, I like Blue Dawn dish soap myself.

 

[BeanAnimal]

@Bruttall you too are attempting to muddy the waters by pointing to other biological threats and undiagnosed cases to downplay or equivocate the danger of palytoxin. It is outright irresponsible.

Your AI generated post partially undermines your position and contradicts itself. On one hand admitting danger and cases, on the other dismissing the same danger. Just more muddy water that deflects from the point.

The rest is lazy and irresponsible deflection to other illness and waving away cases by labeling them as misdiagnoses of flu, covid or “something else”.

Honestly, why are you and others so intent on telling people that something so potentially dangerous isn’t? You hedge and advise to “be careful” and to wear PPE but, but then dismiss the very danger in the same breath. It is ridiculous at every level. Who or what are you trying to protect? Your egos? The misinformed conventional wisdom? What?

Is it too dang hard to just tell them the truth: “These things need to be respected as highly to toxic, if not deadly, so treat them as such”.

 

[dank.reefer]

@Bruttall I see you have figured out how to use the Google search engine and the copy and paste feature. Congratulations.

I also see that you believe that since an article from South Africa that states Palytoxin poisonings are rare, that it is so. To that note I would argue that marine reef aquariums are rare as well. I have hundreds of friends and family members and aquaintences, as well as many reef hobby fellows. When I am not participating in this hobby my instance of running into someone that has a Reef tank goes down exponentially. I have to seek their company if I wish to engage. I would contend that less than 2% of society owns a marine aquarium. I will admit that the 2% is a completely made up number that I pulled from the air and the true count is likely lower. By this standard then yes you could say that the instance of exposure to the general public is very rare. This exposure rate will likely go up exponentially if you were to compare the percentage of confirmed exposure to just marine aquarist. Similarly the instance of people involved in small plane crashes is low in general society, but if you apply the metrics solely to those who regularly fly or ride in small aircraft the numbers will go up exponentially.

I personally am not afraid of palytoxin and simply aim to keep people cautious and aware of what they are dealing with. I regularly put my naked hands and arms in my tanks and simply wash them off when I am done. Do I advocate that this is acceptable and others should do this? No I do not. I suggest to everyone to take all the necessary precautions to protect themselves from harm. If people end up sick it is not due to me telling them that it is a non issue. There are many toxins and pathogens present in our marine aquariums and I feel it is irresponsible to downplay the hazards of what we are doing here.

 

[smitten with ocean life]

#threadmedic ?

 

[TankYouVeryMuch]

I'm saying that I think risk from Palytoxin is controllable and often overblown. Multiple people in this thread insinuated that everyone who owns zoas is doomed to eventually be poisoned.

This is a bit hyperobolic. Risk of exposure can absolutely be reduced, although there are documented cases where normal safety measures were employed and serious poisonings resulted. It takes such a small amount to make someone sick that you’d have to be in a biohazard lab to avoid risk entirely.

I also think that regardless of whether or not you have zoas or palys in your own aquarium has little impact to your risk from the aquarium. You should wear ppe regardless and people who think they've controlled all the risk by avoiding zoas are being misled.

You can absolutely avoid being poisoned by zoas if you don’t have zoas in your tank. That doesn’t eliminate the risk of being injured from other sources. Taking precautions likely reduces risk in all cases, but it’s up to the individual what looks like. Some people will choose not to keep zoanthids in their tank, others will choose optimism.

In other words, some people may read this thread, eliminate all zoas/palys from their tanks, then think they are now safe to go ahead and do whatever they want in the tank without any ppe. Palytoxin gets all the attention, but bacterial infections are much more common.

The most common bacterial infection is reportedly granuloma from Mycobacterium. It is much more commonly reported than palytoxin exposure but generally with much milder symptoms. However maybe it’s worth someone making another post to talk about the risk of Mycobacterium marinum or other bacterial exposure.

 

[BryanM]

It doesn't take much time at all on this forum to see that we have had members get very sick from palytoxins. I love palys, and to this day none are in my tank for this very reason.

 

[TankYouVeryMuch]

OK, what are the "Toxic AF" palys called? I want to research them, and did a Doctor diagnose all of them, or did they just get a little sick and claim it was palytoxin?

If you known flu is infectious, and you hang out with someone with the flu, and you get the symptoms of the flu, will you insist it is not the flu unless you see a doctor? Is it possible to make likely conclusions based on available data. If someone handles a species known to be toxic (such as Palythoa toxica), then immediately gets symptoms that align with Palytoxin exposure, it is reasonable to make a conclusion. That’s exactly what doctors have done in all of the documented cases of Palytoxin exposure.

I keep a dozen different types of zoa's and a couple paly's including Toxic Green Grandis Paly.

And?

I am not saying you can't get Palytoxin Poisoning, but the risks are minimal if you take basic precautions.

Based on what? In almost every documented case I’m aware of where people received permanent injury from Palytoxin they took all of the recommended precautions. Data carries more weight with me than bias.

Also since Palytoxin Poisoning symptoms are really similar to the Common Cold, or COVID and I got to watch how that got Fear Porned all over, I am trying to offer a voice of reason to this discussion.

COVID denial is definitely relevant to this argument, so thanks for that.

The reason Paly Poisoning is rare, but so many in the hobby CLAIM to have had it, is because the symptoms are common as well and easily mistaken for something else. IF YOU THINK YOU HAVE BEEN EXPOSED SEE A DOCTOR ASAP. duh!

Some of ya act like if you stick you hand in a zoa tank you will die and that is just not realistic at all.

That’s because handling some zoas (palys) can kill you. It’s a documented scientific fact. Like COVID.

Minimize your contact with zoa.

Yes.

if you have to touch the Polyps then wear surgical gloves.

Yes.

If you are Fragging them wear eye protection, try and keep them under water, this prevents the "juice" from squirting on you.

Yes.

Avoid sticking your hands in your tank if you have open wounds, scratches or cuts etc, though you are more likely to get a Bacterial Infection that way then Paly Poisoning.

Yes.

Don't rub your face (same warning as for covid remember) but this is really common sense, Never rub your face if you think you have any contaminate on your hands. Probably shouldn't touch yourself either. Just Saying. Wash your hands/arms with anti bacterial soap, I like Blue Dawn dish soap myself.

Yes, yes, and yes. And be aware that even after doing all of these things you can get still get permanently injured:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/a...soning-recent-experience.910816/post-10197922

 

[Fish Styx]

The most common bacterial infection is reportedly granuloma from Mycobacterium. It is much more commonly reported than palytoxin exposure but generally with much milder symptoms. However maybe it’s worth someone making another post to talk about the risk of Mycobacterium marinum or other bacterial exposure.

It's in the works.

 

[fryman]

I think my "chicken little" comment, which was intended to poke a bit of fun, may have offended some. I'm sorry about that, I know people are just voicing their concern for others and I respect that.

I'm not debating the existence of palytoxin or the fact that it can pose a risk. I also think that we should get better in this hobby about informing hobbyists, wearing ppe and controlling risks. I'm just saying that palytoxin is not new, we've had these animals in our care for decades, and I believe it's a risk that we can control better than most others. It's good that people are made aware of the risk so that they can take appropriate precautions. I'm just saying maybe take a step back and look at the whole picture before writing off an entire class of these pets.

I am perplexed at why it's blown up so much in forums like this or why people are disproportionately afraid of these particular animals over anything else. Why don't lionfish or foxfaces get the same warnings? A zoa is never going to dart out of the rockwork to jab you with a venomous spine. We just need to handle them with care and you can almost eliminate the risk.

Zoas and palys are not new, they're commonly recommended to beginners. Go into any LFS and you will find hundreds of these animals, being handled daily. Every day, there are thousands of instances of contact between humans and zoas without ppe. Yes that's reallt not recommended, but 99.99% of the time there are no negative outcomes. So yeah I'm sorry but I don't see the fire.

 

[fryman]

@Bruttall Honestly, why are you and others so intent on telling people that something so potentially dangerous isn’t? You hedge and advise to “be careful” and to wear PPE but, but then dismiss the very danger in the same breath. It is ridiculous at every level. Who or what are you trying to protect? Your egos? The misinformed conventional wisdom? What?

Is it too dang hard to just tell them the truth: “These things need to be respected as highly to toxic, if not deadly, so treat them as such”.

I agree with your last point, and I don't speak for everyone but maybe we are reacting defensively to this percieved intense focus on how dangerous zoas are because you are in a forum called "CLUB ZOA", which is frequented by pet owners who care for, and care about, zoas.

If you went into a dog lovers forum and presented long drawn out arguments stating how many people are mauled and killed by dogs, how unpredictable they can be, and how native wildlife are being wiped out, and how seriously dangerous these animals really, really are ...well, some people in the forum might also get defensive.

FWIW, I think actually our opinions on the matter aren't very different. Your posts seem to present actual risks and controls accurately, at least as far as I know.

 

[BeanAnimal]

You are twisting yourself into a pretzel to not be wrong and still downplay the risk — by your own admission — not because the facts are in dispute but rather to protect against a perceived attack on the coral species.

That alone is ridiculous and wholly undermines your point, as does trying to play off your wording as a joke and then doubling down again. Frankly, you are just digging a hole — that is why this is “long and drawn out”.

A zoanthid forum? I can’t think of a better place to have this important conversation and dispel the misinformation and downplayed dangers.

You entered this thread declaring that the risk is overblown and that the toxin can’t be absorbed through the skin, and furthermore that highlighting the dangers of palytoxin is dangerous because it detracts from other dangers. No, we are not close to being on the same page or sharing a similar opinion. I think you are in way over your head.

Why not foxface or lionfish? Because the danger is not even remotely in the same class. The fact that you are trying to equate the two to (again) downplay the dangers of palytoxin is mind boggling. That said, people should most certainly be appraised of the dangers of those fish.

Sure, Palythoa and Zoanthids are popular. People handling them barehanded, without PPE, without harm, boils down to luck of the draw. Many don’t carry the toxin, but some do, and we don’t know which ones. That doesn’t lessen the danger of those that do.

People need to understand that these corals carry one of the most toxic substances known. They need to be respected as highly toxic, if not deadly. It is that simple.

 

[CedarReef]

Something I haven't seen mentioned in this thread is that household bleach is supposedly very affective at neutralizing palytoxin.

I had a small piece of live rock that sprung up some toxic looking green trash palys that I didn't want so I threw it in a bucket of bleach solution for a couple days. Definitely the least stressful way to get rid of it.

IMO good practice to bleach anything that comes in contact with corals when fragging, and even spray and wipe down the area. Probably most people on this site do that already.

 

[Ef4life]

I don’t recommend getting it in your eyes. It was like pink eye but 20x worse, my eyes were pretty much swollen shut and my eye lids would get glued shut with all the eye junk they were producing. I’d consider myself lucky as I don’t think i had any direct exposure in my eyes since I wear glasses when fragging zoas, but wiping sweat from my face during a long fragging session is probably what did it, i also had some steroid eye drops i used after it happened and I think that helped to not have any actual damage to my eyes.

 

[Bruttall]

If you known flu is infectious, and you hang out with someone with the flu, and you get the symptoms of the flu, will you insist it is not the flu unless you see a doctor? Is it possible to make likely conclusions based on available data. If someone handles a species known to be toxic (such as Palythoa toxica), then immediately gets symptoms that align with Palytoxin exposure, it is reasonable to make a conclusion. That’s exactly what doctors have done in all of the documented cases of Palytoxin exposure.

The Reason I asked for the Specific Name of the Toxic AF Paly, is because I am calling bull on his story. I think he fabricated it. So I asked for the Name of the Paly. Also I love Zoa and Paly's and I collect them, with a 300g tank I have a few.


I also think Most of the People claiming to have had Palytoxin Poisoning are self diagnosed. I base that on the Documented 177 cases in 14 years. Yes I am a SKEPTIC and I remain so, especially in light of all the LIES the Medical Industry puts out, like covid kills people, NOT A SINGLE PERSON DIED OF COVID, it was CO MORBIDITY THAT KILLED THEM, You know, like motorcycle accidents reported as Covid, sorry you fell for the Psyop Scam to Poison 1/3 of the worlds population. Maybe you should read some of the things put out by the guy that Invented the mRNA Spike Protein used in the Bioweapon Vaccines, his name is Dr Robert Malone Jr.

 

[Bruttall]

I personally am not afraid of palytoxin and simply aim to keep people cautious and aware of what they are dealing with. I regularly put my naked hands and arms in my tanks and simply wash them off when I am done. Do I advocate that this is acceptable and others should do this? No I do not. I suggest to everyone to take all the necessary precautions to protect themselves from harm. If people end up sick it is not due to me telling them that it is a non issue. There are many toxins and pathogens present in our marine aquariums and I feel it is irresponsible to downplay the hazards of what we are doing here.

I feel it is irresponsible to Fear **** people. Lets stick to Facts shall we. I also do not Fear Palytoxins because I am Informed on the Risks, which are Minimal.
How many palytoxin Related Fatalities have occurred last 20 years?
How many Hospitalizations?
There are Zero recorded instances of hospitalization or death in the USA from palytoxin, so how common is it really?
There is NO DATA Available that i can find, suggesting that these occurrences are beyond RARE.
For the record I do not use Google, it is compromised with misinformation.
So much like the Covid Fear **** of 2020 there just isn't DATA to back up all the FEAR I am seeing.

Prevalence and characteristics of inhalational and dermal palytoxin exposures reported to the National Poison Data System in the U.S - PubMed

The incidence of palytoxin exposure is low but significant symptoms can occur.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Bruttall]

@Bruttall you too are attempting to muddy the waters by pointing to other biological threats and undiagnosed cases to downplay or equivocate the danger of palytoxin. It is outright irresponsible.

Your AI generated post partially undermines your position and contradicts itself. On one hand admitting danger and cases, on the other dismissing the same danger. Just more muddy water that deflects from the point.

The rest is lazy and irresponsible deflection to other illness and waving away cases by labeling them as misdiagnoses of flu, covid or “something else”.

Honestly, why are you and others so intent on telling people that something so potentially dangerous isn’t? You hedge and advise to “be careful” and to wear PPE but, but then dismiss the very danger in the same breath. It is ridiculous at every level. Who or what are you trying to protect? Your egos? The misinformed conventional wisdom? What?

Is it too dang hard to just tell them the truth: “These things need to be respected as highly to toxic, if not deadly, so treat them as such”.

How many reported cases of Hospitalization or Death ion the last 20 years? Show the DATA, Show me this is not just more FEAR ****.
I know in the USA in the last 20 years there have been A Total of ZERO reported Palytoxin Deaths.

Is palytoxin Real? Yes it is Real
Is it Dangerous? Yes it can be.
Are Reefers commonly infected? No it is extremely Rare. 177 cases in 14 years.
Can They Die? No reported Cases of Death I can find.
What does it do? It's like the flu! Unless you get the Juice in your eye, then you can get vision problems and should seek treatment immediately as it can cause blindness.

The reason I use AI sometimes, it does a better job of explaining things than I can sometimes. It's a tool I use to do research. I fail to see how using tools, like an Encyclopedia makes me less than Informed, but W/E.