PAR charts and more PAR charts for the Kessil AP700 LED! | BRStv Investigates

[USMC 4 LIFE]

I do agree though that the initial ramping from 0% to 1% is abrupt and not smooth. It’s as if I’m turning the kitchen light on. I would like a more seamless transition like the rest of the intensity settings. But im nit picking. The light is great and for me, it’s worth the $900

 

[Kyl]

My only gripe with the light continues to be software, the hardware certainly doesn't disappoint. Kessil has brushed me off every time I've brought this up to both their marketing and support staff. The app is about Jebao quality, and does not handle power outages well. Mine will lose it's pairing every few months, but at this point it's far out of RMA (about the two year birthday now), and I don't see any hope of them improving it or extending functionality to the Apex.

* I'll expand on this somewhat, and though it is a bit of a rant I feel important to let people know that the light is not all roses as it can come across.

The first year of ownership was fairly awful, solely due to their controller firmware issues and the control app solution. The (v3.4) firmware update that finally corrected some persistent day one issues took over a year to arrive, being earlier this year (not counting the beta release which still had issues). They also have completely backed off of any mention of future controller support, and I know that was part of the verbal marketing they were doing at the trade shows before it went retail.

The light feels like it's never progressed out of a beta release, unfortunately there was so much industry hype and brand trust behind it that I think a lot of early adopters thought things would flush out. From some accounts it appears there's one major hobbyist steering the Kessil ship for us, and I'm not quite sure if he's even there anymore, or has just accepted that DiCon seemingly won't invest in developing a fully-fledged control solution.

If I knew what would end up happening, or better stated not happening with the light, I probably would't have purchased it. The A360W's may lack some of the spectrum, but once you become accustomed to a certain degree of control, it's hard to go back. At this point I would take basic 0-10v control like my other Kessils over what they offer with the app.

 

[Fritzhamer]

Maybe something was wrong with mine but the color changes were not at all gradual, they were instantaneous like turning a kitchen light on or off. It would go from blue to almost white in a flash.

 

[Mal11224]

I have this light. Replaced my A160s with it and I added T5 lighting to it and have had great results. Shadowing is an issue with most, if not all, LEDs. But, the AP700 provides great spread throughout my 70 gal tank. I use Red and green with deep blues for lighting and actinic ATI bulbs blue and purple for the T5 and everything is growing and looks happy. In my opinion, LED and T5 combos work great. The AP700 packs a punch and the acclimation program helps with getting the tank used to it and then you just increase intensity gradually until you find the the right one. Glad I got them.

 

[Ryanbrs]

My only gripe with the light continues to be software, the hardware certainly doesn't disappoint. Kessil has brushed me off every time I've brought this up to both their marketing and support staff. The app is about Jebao quality, and does not handle power outages well. Mine will lose it's pairing every few months, but at this point it's far out of RMA (about the two year birthday now), and I don't see any hope of them improving it or extending functionality to the Apex.

* I'll expand on this somewhat, and though it is a bit of a rant I feel important to let people know that the light is not all roses as it can come across.

The first year of ownership was fairly awful, solely due to their controller firmware issues and the control app solution. The (v3.4) firmware update that finally corrected some persistent day one issues took over a year to arrive, being earlier this year (not counting the beta release which still had issues). They also have completely backed off of any mention of future controller support, and I know that was part of the verbal marketing they were doing at the trade shows before it went retail.

The light feels like it's never progressed out of a beta release, unfortunately there was so much industry hype and brand trust behind it that I think a lot of early adopters thought things would flush out. From some accounts it appears there's one major hobbyist steering the Kessil ship for us, and I'm not quite sure if he's even there anymore, or has just accepted that DiCon seemingly won't invest in developing a fully-fledged control solution.

If I knew what would end up happening, or better stated not happening with the light, I probably would't have purchased it. The A360W's may lack some of the spectrum, but once you become accustomed to a certain degree of control, it's hard to go back. At this point I would take basic 0-10v control like my other Kessils over what they offer with the app.

I think this experience is 100% accurate. First, I also expected Kessil to take some of the "beta" issues more seriously and find solutions much quicker. They did eventually produce better firmware, but I do think they let early adpotors down.

Performance and hardware design (as a LED module) is awesome and the ap700 is one of the only lights out there that performs like a single source of light rather than dozens of individual spectrum LEDs flashing around the tank. Awesome performance in certain areas, which isn't really replicable by any competitor, is why they receive so much grace. This is certainly why I am not harder on them for some elements. The reality is all the lights have issues in some areas.

As we mentioned in this review and yesterday's video, I have also been frustrated with the software enough to replace the 700's with the a360's on the brs160. Again, the reason I don't harp on it harder is half because I like the hardware so much and half because I personally have the need to control it very frequently for video which is a unique situation. Most reefers are going to set it and leave it alone, so they should not run into the same issues - particularly if they have a stable power supply. Power outages sometimes cause issues reconnecting multiple lights together.

End of the day, as long as I can do it with a clean looking install the T5 ap700 or a360 hybrids is my current favorite total lighting solution for any of my own personal tanks. It simply looks and performs better than a vast majority of today's other common options.

 

[Kyl]

I think this experience is 100% accurate. First, I also expected Kessil to take some of the "beta" issues more seriously and find solutions much quicker. They did eventually produce better firmware, but I do think they let early adpotors down.

Performance and hardware design (as a LED module) is awesome and the ap700 is one of the only lights out there that performs like a single source of light rather than dozens of individual spectrum LEDs flashing around the tank. Awesome performance in certain areas, which isn't really replicable by any competitor, is why they receive so much grace. This is certainly why I am not harder on them for some elements. The reality is all the lights have issues in some areas.

As we mentioned in this review and yesterday's video, I have also been frustrated with the software enough to replace the 700's with the a360's on the brs160. Again, the reason I don't harp on it harder is half because I like the hardware so much and half because I personally have the need to control it very frequently for video which is a unique situation. Most reefers are going to set it and leave it alone, so they should not run into the same issues - particularly if they have a stable power supply. Power outages sometimes cause issues reconnecting multiple lights together.

End of the day, as long as I can do it with a clean looking install the T5 ap700 or a360 hybrids is my current favorite total lighting solution for any of my own personal tanks. It simply looks and performs better than a vast majority of today's other common options.

I understand the position you're in, probably having enough of an industry voice to indirectly or directly put pressure on DiCon/Kessil depending on what is said, as BRS no doubt drives a large number of sales to their hardware. I don't think one could buy the kind of exposure this fixture has gotten from the BRS160 series and all the other follow-ups of other family members.

I don't think it's asking too much of them to either finish what they started on a $900+ USD fixture, or simply state that the fixture is considered complete so more people don't buy into it thinking things may change. This unit is not cheap, but the software experience feels like something you'd buy off fishstreet.

Thanks for your videos by the way, you do the community a great service.

 

[ReefRealEstate]

I purchased this light when it first came out hoping that it would cover my Red Sea Reefer 350. It didn't. The software was bad at the time and I didn't trust it to properly link two unit together so I sold it and went in another direction with my lights. I had the lights for a year and more than 2 years after the lights are released it's kinda sad that all the software kinds haven't been ironed out yet.

With that being said, this was a good light to own and the shimmer was better than the 360.

Hey man, I hear you, in the beginning it was a nightmare with the software, but now, it works great, no issues at all, I have had 2 of these lights going on my tank for about a year now. All good!

 

[Rip Van Winkle]

For me, not being able to connect a $900 fixture to a controller (like Apex) is a deal-breaker in terms of purchasing this light. I think any fixture priced at $900 should carry that. I would really like to know the reason that it lacks that functionality.

 

[Dizzirn]

Thank you

 

[Mpierce]

I say keep bringing on the PAR charts, they don't bore me at all! I dig the info!

 

[Mpierce]

Maybe lets see the a160 and a80 sometime?

 

[steventaylor702]

For me, not being able to connect a $900 fixture to a controller (like Apex) is a deal-breaker in terms of purchasing this light. I think any fixture priced at $900 should carry that. I would really like to know the reason that it lacks that functionality.

Because it takes time to develop a working set up. It not like any of there old lights that have only 2 channels and less functionality

 

[bamr42]

You guys never reviewed the AI Hydra 52 HD, is there a possibility to see those par numbers and settings? I'm sure there's a lot of reefers out there that have purchased it for BRS and would like to see the best setup.

 

[AcanthurusRex]

I'd like to see a spectrum comparison between with and without the slight diffusion lenses. I have been using the lenses and found that to get to the PAR values above 250 I need to turn the light on 100%. I pulled off the lenses and matched the PAR using an Apogee SQ-520 and the corals reacted badly. I suspect that the lenses are attenuating some portion of the spectrum the SQ-520 does not measure.

I complained about the time base issues between the 2 fixtures and have used v34 (beta for a few weeks) all but the first few weeks of service. Version v34 made the lights serviceable. The lights still show timing issues, delays changing color/intensity. With power loss the timebase is lost. You really must log into the light routinely for them to correct the timebase drift. The daylight savings time change last week required manual intervention.
These lamps will not join my WiFi network. I recently did some testing and found the issue is my password does not agree with the software. I was able to connect using a somewhat insecure password. I did not attempt to determine if this a length or character issues since it's not my job.
The current iPhone app does not function 100% with the latest iOS.
I work in a group that designs embedded micros very similar to what many of the IoT aquarium devices might use. I work with the software/firmware team and I see first hand how difficult simple things like Bluetooth are at the low level which we end users take for granted. IMO these companies like Kessil have bitten off more than they thought with these IoT implementations. Chasing Apples iOS changes or working across hundreds of Android versions probably not going to happen and the lights will become inoperative at some point in time since they have no functional physical interface.
I mention that this could be mitigated by allowing Apex integration every time I interface with Kessil support. I would have preferred that the AP700 had the old analog controls, or used the WXM module, so the Apex could do the network integration. While Neptune is far from perfect their business is control and integration and is seems dumb not to leverage this work. This idea that every piece of equipment has it's own proprietary network interface is a real pain. Of course a common interface would allow ReefAngel to become functional and this could kill Neptune/GHL so I doubt things will improve.
I will avoid purchasing any equipment in the future that depends solely on a phone app to function especially a $900 light...from any vendor not just Kessil.

 

[Rip Van Winkle]

Because it takes time to develop a working set up. It not like any of there old lights that have only 2 channels and less functionality

I understand that and to a certain level, I see what you are saying but they are the ones that chose to put out this type of product and they chose the price. I think if Kessil makes a decision to put out a product, they need to take responsibility for it. If it's not ready, don't release it until it is. Or,... be really upfront about it being a beta (as was mentioned by another member above) & price it accordingly. Then, accept the feedback. No disrespect intended but it sounds like making an excuse for them.
I mean, the light's basically a Grand. And really, how much do customers have to pay for that? Am I wrong here?

Aside from that, another thing I keep forgetting to mention is heat generated by lighting reaching and heating the water. That's something that usually doesn't get any mention on the fixture testing. I'd be interested in knowing how much water temperature is raised when the fixture being tested is installed close to the water level. I think this is an important point because it will affect how the light can be used with any given tank. For instance, if the fixture needs to be mounted at 6" from the surface (or similar height) to be able to achieve the correct "lighting" for the coral setup in the tank but then doing that ends up heating the tank water to the point where a chiller needs to be used to cool the water because it's getting too hot. It adds a hidden expense to being able to use the fixture. So I hope BRS considers/does this going forward.

 

[steventaylor702]

I understand that and to a certain level, I see what you are saying but they are the ones that chose to put out this type of product and they chose the price. I think if Kessil makes a decision to put out a product, they need to take responsibility for it. If it's not ready, don't release it until it is. Or,... be really upfront about it being a beta (as was mentioned by another member above) & price it accordingly. Then, accept the feedback. No disrespect intended but it sounds like making an excuse for them.
I mean, the light's basically a Grand. And really, how much do customers have to pay for that? Am I wrong here?

Aside from that, another thing I keep forgetting to mention is heat generated by lighting reaching and heating the water. That's something that usually doesn't get any mention on the fixture testing. I'd be interested in knowing how much water temperature is raised when the fixture being tested is installed close to the water level. I think this is an important point because it will affect how the light can be used with any given tank. For instance, if the fixture needs to be mounted at 6" from the surface (or similar height) to be able to achieve the correct "lighting" for the coral setup in the tank but then doing that ends up heating the tank water to the point where a chiller needs to be used to cool the water because it's getting too hot. It adds a hidden expense to being able to use the fixture. So I hope BRS considers/does this going forward.

Not making Excuses for them I just don't think the light is as bad as people make it out to be. The app has come a long way and the light was always good. I do think they rushed it to the public probably do to a decline in sales or something along those lines. They have some polishing to do but I love this light it's everything I'd expect plus some.

Also this is the first light I will Purchase from kessil so not a opinion based on brand loyalty. My friend broke down his tank when I was talking about wanting to buy this light so he let me test it on my tank for a couple of months until he moved.

 

[Rip Van Winkle]

... I would really like to know the reason that it lacks that functionality.

... I work in a group that designs embedded micros very similar to what many of the IoT aquarium devices might use. I work with the software/firmware team and I see first hand how difficult simple things like Bluetooth are at the low level which we end users take for granted. IMO these companies like Kessil have bitten off more than they thought with these IoT implementations. Chasing Apples iOS changes or working across hundreds of Android versions probably not going to happen and the lights will become inoperative at some point in time since they have no functional physical interface.
I mention that this could be mitigated by allowing Apex integration every time I interface with Kessil support. I would have preferred that the AP700 had the old analog controls, or used the WXM module, so the Apex could do the network integration. While Neptune is far from perfect their business is control and integration and is seems dumb not to leverage this work. This idea that every piece of equipment has it's own proprietary network interface is a real pain. Of course a common interface would allow ReefAngel to become functional and this could kill Neptune/GHL so I doubt things will improve.
I will avoid purchasing any equipment in the future that depends solely on a phone app to function especially a $900 light...from any vendor not just Kessil.

@AcanthurusRex Thanks and this is something close to what I suspected, actually. It would be nice if someone from Kessil got on this thread and gave an explanation about why they don't leave the control and integration to aquarium controller companies. (Hope that's not wishful thinking )

 

[steventaylor702]

@AcanthurusRex Thanks and this is something close to what I suspected, actually. It would be nice if someone from Kessil got on this thread and gave an explanation about why they don't leave the control and integration to aquarium controller companies. (Hope that's not wishful thinking )

Because no company is going to develop controls For a product that's not theirs

 

[steventaylor702]

Especially none of these bigger companies unless they have something to gain from it

 

[Rip Van Winkle]

Not making Excuses for them I just don't think the light is as bad as people make it out to be. I do think they rushed it to the public probably do to a decline in sales or something along those lines. They have some polishing to do but I love this light it's everything I'd expect plus some.

I'll reply that opinions vary. I don't think Kessil is running out of money. Come on. I don't see that being based on anything but a feeling.
And I stand by what I said before. Respectfully, I don't think you're coming from an informed understanding compared to the information that AcanthurusRex just posted. I'm not going to pursue this conversation.

The app has come a long way and the light was always good.

The hardware is very good. No issue there IMHO. The problem is control. There's a difference between the two and that's what we're talking about.