PAR charts and more PAR charts for the Kessil AP700 LED! | BRStv Investigates

[Rip Van Winkle]

Because no company is going to develop controls For a product that's not theirs

Okay,... you lost me? And I was hoping for someone from Kessil...... unless you actually work for them?

 

[leahfiish]

Great video, BRS. Is it safe to assume that at 50% intensity par values would be about half?

 

[Ryanbrs]

Aside from that, another thing I keep forgetting to mention is heat generated by lighting reaching and heating the water. That's something that usually doesn't get any mention on the fixture testing. I'd be interested in knowing how much water temperature is raised when the fixture being tested is installed close to the water level. I think this is an important point because it will affect how the light can be used with any given tank. For instance, if the fixture needs to be mounted at 6" from the surface (or similar height) to be able to achieve the correct "lighting" for the coral setup in the tank but then doing that ends up heating the tank water to the point where a chiller needs to be used to cool the water because it's getting too hot. It adds a hidden expense to being able to use the fixture. So I hope BRS considers/does this going forward.

I see what you are getting at and will give this some thought. However, at 180 watts, I would be surprised if it was a major factor. Even a submerged 180 watt heater isn't all that strong. I will say I think the ap700 performed much better at 7-9 inches off the tank and where I would personally mount them. This is about the same height as other LED's.

All the complaints about the software are legit and I think everyone was kind of surprised by how long it took to get reasonably stable firmware out. Kessil is a subsidiary of the very large, very profitable parent company Dicon Fiberoptics. Resources should not be an issue for them.

 

[Ryanbrs]

Great video, BRS. Is it safe to assume that at 50% intensity par values would be about half?

Based on our other tests I think it is reasonable to assume so. This has been true across most of the lights we have tested including the a360.

 

[steventaylor702]

Okay,... you lost me? And I was hoping for someone from Kessil...... unless you actually work for them?

Like Apex for instance if you want apex integration for your product you have to develop it and then Apex finalizes it and make sure it works properly with their system

 

[Rip Van Winkle]

I see what you are getting at and will give this some thought. However, at 180 watts, I would be surprised if it was a major factor. Even a submerged 180 watt heater isn't all that strong. I will say I think the ap700 performed much better at 7-9 inches off the tank and where I would personally mount them. This is about the same height as other LED's.

All the complaints about the software are legit and I think everyone was kind of surprised by how long it took to get reasonably stable firmware out. Kessil is a subsidiary of the very large, very profitable parent company Dicon Fiberoptics. Resources should not be an issue for them.

Thanks for the reply Ryan, if you're not seeing fixtures significantly heating up the water in your testing, then I'd say fair enough. The reason why I asked is because I'm overseas and we're seeing how fixtures impact tank temperatures quite a bit here. For example, even running standard T5's heat up the water to about 31C (87.8F). That's why I'm asking. So if this is an issue for only a few people on this forum (like myself) I don't expect BRS to have to jump though extra hoops with the fixture evaluations (but it would be nice if they did! ) It's a problem for us because not every home is insulated (ie: cinderblock walls with no gyprock inside) nor is aircon always available.
When I was back home, (Montreal, Canada) I never noticed any significant heating up either and quite frankly never even crossed my mind that it ever could. Now that I'm running the same equipment over here, I see how things are different and that info is really relevant (and necessary) because it will have an impact on my setup.

 

[AcanthurusRex]

Because no company is going to develop controls For a product that's not theirs

Pretty sure Neptune did the integration with the Kessil can lights. I think they did the integration with the Radions as well. Could be wrong but I think I remember a post regarding the EcoTech Vectra and Neptune indicated that EcoTech did not want to cooperate. Anyway Neptune's main business is the controller and integration is part of being in control.

All the complaints about the software are legit and I think everyone was kind of surprised by how long it took to get reasonably stable firmware out. Kessil is a subsidiary of the very large, very profitable parent company Dicon Fiberoptics. Resources should not be an issue for them.

Dicon may be a larger company but I think Kessil is 3 or 4 people that now work for Dicon. It would not surprise me if the design and coding for the controller was outsourced. Dicon certainly engineered the LEDs and optics. In fairness I think everything EcoTech sells is designed by a CM most likely in China.
Support for a phone app is a never ending drudgery. How many iPhone 4 apps run on an iPhone 8, close to zero. In five years how many of these product will be useless because the app no longer runs? I actually never considered this predicament until now.

LEDs don't emit much in the IR spectrum which is why they don't heat the water as much as MH or T5s. The heat dissipated from the LEDs on the Kessil is pushed out the side vents. Heat sinks are well designed. I don't see any significant temp rise in my system from the light.

 

[AcanthurusRex]

Like Apex for instance if you want apex integration for your product you have to develop it and then Apex finalizes it and make sure it works properly with their system

The have an API. Don't know if anyone outside of Neptune has used it or if it's any good.

 

[Kyl]

Support for a phone app is a never ending drudgery. How many iPhone 4 apps run on an iPhone 8, close to zero. In five years how many of these product will be useless because the app no longer runs? I actually never considered this predicament until now.

I don't trust longevity of the app, it's part of the reason I'm somewhat off-put. The fixture has been retail for two years now, ample enough time to get things sorted.

 

[Rip Van Winkle]

Like Apex for instance if you want apex integration for your product you have to develop it and then Apex finalizes it and make sure it works properly with their system

Pretty sure Neptune did the integration with the Kessil can lights. I think they did the integration with the Radions as well. Could be wrong but I think I remember a post regarding the EcoTech Vectra and Neptune indicated that EcoTech did not want to cooperate. Anyway Neptune's main business is the controller and integration is part of being in control.

@steventaylor702, I would even accept very basic control (which I think doesn't really do the AP700 justice, compared to what it's fully capable of - but I digress) like 0 - 10v, which I know would be very easy to do. Anyone in the shoes of a person running a controller on their system, will look at a reef tank equipment accessory and first thing they will look for is controller compatibility. Especially a light like the AP700 priced at $900. I think that's just a normal reaction. Personally, I don't see an excuse for having at least that functionality in this caliber of light fixture. Are you able to describe in detail what the Apex integration for the AP700 would entail?

LEDs don't emit much in the IR spectrum which is why they don't heat the water as much as MH or T5s. The heat dissipated from the LEDs on the Kessil is pushed out the side vents. Heat sinks are well designed. I don't see any significant temp rise in my system from the light.

I agree and I thought the same way when I was living in Canada. I ran MH - which is way worse actually - and never had any problem with heat.
In North America, the climate is very different than here on the equator and any increase in temp caused by equipment will affect the surroundings.
I think to give a valid reply to this, I would have to run the aircon for a few days and have the room temp stable at 25*C (or whatever it works itself out to) and then take temp readings with the lights off at night. Then take temp readings when the lights come back on in the morning. Then compare the two to show how much the temp rises when the lights come on. Do this for several days and see what if it averages out to something significant.

 

[steventaylor702]

@steventaylor702, I would even accept very basic control (which I think doesn't really do the AP700 justice, compared to what it's fully capable of - but I digress) like 0 - 10v, which I know would be very easy to do. Anyone in the shoes of a person running a controller on their system, will look at a reef tank equipment accessory and first thing they will look for is controller compatibility. Especially a light like the AP700 priced at $900. I think that's just a normal reaction. Personally, I don't see an excuse for having at least that functionality in this caliber of light fixture. Are you able to describe in detail what the Apex integration for the AP700 would entail?



I agree and I thought the same way when I was living in Canada. I ran MH - which is way worse actually - and never had any problem with heat.
In North America, the climate is very different than here on the equator and any increase in temp caused by equipment will affect the surroundings.
I think to give a valid reply to this, I would have to run the aircon for a few days and have the room temp stable at 25*C (or whatever it works itself out to) and then take temp readings with the lights off at night. Then take temp readings when the lights come back on in the morning. Then compare the two to show how much the temp rises when the lights come on. Do this for several days and see what if it averages out to something significant.

building an interface module or setting it up the the apex iof and lots of coding first setting up a way for the apex to speak to the kessil then setting up coding so the apex can properly use each channel of leds, coding to be able to set up timers, coding for Special features like clouds, moon cycle, and storms. the list goes on its not like a simple 2 channel light it's has Mutiple channels and each channel has to have at minimum 0-10v control to make it work and that just basic functionality

 

[Kyl]

It would be interesting to hear from David Lowry @ Kessil what the future holds. Perhaps some of the industry people could make an inquiry?

 

[Rip Van Winkle]

building an interface module or setting it up the the apex iof and lots of coding first setting up a way for the apex to speak to the kessil then setting up coding so the apex can properly use each channel of leds, coding to be able to set up timers, coding for Special features like clouds, moon cycle, and storms. the list goes on its not like a simple 2 channel light it's has Mutiple channels and each channel has to have at minimum 0-10v control to make it work and that just basic functionality

Alright, so you're saying lots of coding. You're insinuating that it's not possible for Kessil to do it?

 

[AcanthurusRex]

building an interface module or setting it up the the apex iof and lots of coding first setting up a way for the apex to speak to the kessil then setting up coding so the apex can properly use each channel of leds, coding to be able to set up timers, coding for Special features like clouds, moon cycle, and storms. the list goes on its not like a simple 2 channel light it's has Mutiple channels and each channel has to have at minimum 0-10v control to make it work and that just basic functionality

I suspect the light does most of those functions. Since my light do not connect to my WiFi and I rarely access them and theses function continue to work. It appears to me that the app just sets up the lights via commands sent over WiFi.

 

[steventaylor702]

Alright, so you're saying lots of coding. You're insinuating that it's not possible for Kessil to do it?

No I'm insinuating that it takes a lot of time Especially if you don't have a large team working on it, kessil is just a small portion of a much larger company they probably do not have a large team working on it along with working on the current app to iron out the bugs and issues.

 

[steventaylor702]

I suspect the light does most of those functions. Since my light do not connect to my WiFi and I rarely access them and theses function continue to work. It appears to me that the app just sets up the lights via commands sent over WiFi.

Yes you would be right I was just pointing out the 0-10v input because he brought it up.

 

[steventaylor702]

I suspect the light does most of those functions. Since my light do not connect to my WiFi and I rarely access them and theses function continue to work. It appears to me that the app just sets up the lights via commands sent over WiFi.

With that being said the ecotech also just uses Wi-Fi to receive it's information and they have to have a module to have it work with apex currently. It could be a little different if apex got it's iot service up and going making it up to the Manufacturer of the product if they want there to be a module to control their product or not

 

[Rip Van Winkle]

No I'm insinuating that it takes a lot of time Especially if you don't have a large team working on it, kessil is just a small portion of a much larger company they probably do not have a large team working on it along with working on the current app to iron out the bugs and issues.

That's definitely not the case. If you look at the DIY section, there's a thread where Ranjib is putting together a controller. He's doing all the coding himself and for more than one kind of LED fixture. I'm in IT but I don't write software, so lets say my knowledge about writing code is limited. The fact is though, that he's one guy working on the coding and it's getting done. So I can't see your argument as informed in the least.

Like I said before, you seem to be insisting on making excuses for Kessil all throughout this thread. Something that's kinda hard not to notice. Is there a reason why you're taking it upon yourself to try to get the last word in defending Kessil?

 

[steventaylor702]

That's definitely not the case. If you look at the DIY section, there's a thread where Ranjib is putting together a controller. He's doing all the coding himself and for more than one kind of LED fixture. I'm in IT but I don't write software, so lets say my knowledge about writing code is limited. The fact is though, that he's one guy working on the coding and it's getting done. So I can't see your argument as informed in the least.

Like I said before, you seem to be insisting on making excuses for Kessil all throughout this thread. Something that's kinda hard not to notice. Is there a reason why you're taking it upon yourself to try to get the last word in defending Kessil?

That's nice that you think that I'm gonna go ahead and stop the convo you do not have the information to understand the difficulties of coding for this product to get it to work with the apex they are not going for basic functionality or people like you would have a fit like you are right now about the current app. But I'm done with the argument

 

[Monkeynaut]

So this light doesn't have an internal timer that keeps ticking during a power outage? I have to log into it to get it to catch up on the time?

How is firmware upgraded? Via WIFI or cord?