Par from T5 vs par from led

[saltyfilmfolks]

No...................not exactly..and certainly not in HIGH vs LOW..

Random picked spectrum

Where’d you pull the kessil spectrum from? That’s cool.
I actually expaected to see more in the 500 525.

 

[oreo54]

Where’d you pull the kessil spectrum from? That’s cool.
I actually expaected to see more in the 500 525.

Here..
stripped url..
reef2reef.com/attachments/img_1711-png.518492/

 

[anthonys51]

Kelvin spread ?

Actually I belive they cluster the led ins kessil and Radion is becuse it’s cheap to make.
Search back a few years and research something called the dream chip. Basically a kessil.

But that has little to do with par and spectrum.

Also folks forget , there’s a ton of metal halides that are just awful. Really expensive , terrible reflectors and made a huge hot spot. I actually have one in the basement. It’s horrble.

Might not be calling it right but each little led light is it’s own channel such as uv and such where t5 is a more even spread. Not explaining it correctly. But we are only talking par not kelvin or spectrum of light. It’s was you use a different light fir freshwater plants than corals

 

[anthonys51]

This isn’t the same as a t5 bulb

Each one is it’s own spotlight. It’s not as efficient as a t5 bulb. Not sure if I am explaining it righg

 

[Crabs McJones]

Where’d you pull the kessil spectrum from? That’s cool.
I actually expaected to see more in the 500 525.

I believe that BRS posts the spectral graphs in their brstv investigates for both the 360 and the AP700

 

[oreo54]

This isn’t the same as a t5 bulb

Each one is it’s own spotlight. It’s not as efficient as a t5 bulb. Not sure if I am explaining it right

Well tubes are internally blended and yes there are separate color LED's but blending is also determined by beam angle, distance from "object", diode packing, and the amount of exit diffusion...
At a certain point the only "colors" you would see are on the outside circle.

http://www.newsshooter.com/2017/07/17/hive-wasp-100-c/
The color seperation most see is mostly due to lensing effects.. be it surface disturbance or condensation..
LED's CAN be manufactured to almost exactly like MH..

Violet pump and RGB phosphors eliminating all of the difference...

Someday......

Oh doesn't have anything to do w/ PAR though..

 

[oreo54]

I actually expected to see more in the 500 525.

Kessil like most light manuf. be it sw or fw ignores it.

Pet peeve of mine..

 

[anthonys51]

Yes I know. Par on a freshwater light and Reef light are the same but not the same for the colors. Also I understand your point. Just stated that led isn’t as effective or efficient at spreading the different spectrums of light as t5

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

eh , they all grow coral.
Let’s not make it one of those debates.

 

[chipmunkofdoom2]

eh , they all grow coral.
Let’s not make it one of those debates.

Lol. I thought that as I saw the spectrum talk starting on the previous page. I thought "here we go again..."

 

[bif24701]

If you go LED get a nice fixture with good spread like the Kessil AP700.

 

[jda]

The burn from LEDs is from peaks too high in some diodes... they can harm coral. What is amazing is that the same peaks in other types of light are fine... 6500K MH can have massive amounts and corals flourish... same with 6500K T5s... get some 6500K white diodes and coral dies. I do not know of a single LED fixture that would have more output than a 6500K, or even 10K, 400W MH with PAR well over 800-1000 a few inches deep and probably 500 at the sandbed in most tanks... and the coral just thrives under these. Quantity is not the problem, it is quality.

One of the guys that I went to Engineering School with now works Phillips in Europe. Although totally possible right now, if diodes were made the same way as MH or T5s with wide bands of phosphors and wide spectrum, then there is no energy savings and the diodes would have smallish shelf lives of around 5-8K hours. The real efficiences and draw are to cut spectrum and save power - 8 watts to light a hallway when all that is needed is a narrow band of visible light. He works on power supplies and their main clients are for general lighting... to say that anybody cares too much about developing diodes just for reefing is a farce. He has told me a bunch of times that medical, dental and laboratory uses do make money, so maybe we will get lucky like with the Radium. This might not be happening very soon. I would think that there could be some intrigue by a wide range diode that might last 10+ years, but spending so much for 1-3 years of use does not have much of a value proposition.

 

[anthonys51]

My friend used 400 watt mh in his 8 inch deep sps tank. They only run for 6 hours a day but yes par is like 800 and his sps are beautiful. If I ran 800 with my led I bleach them all. I am not an engineer like your friend but common send tells you there s something different

 

[Eric23]

My friend used 400 watt mh in his 8 inch deep sps tank. They only run for 6 hours a day but yes par is like 800 and his sps are beautiful. If I ran 800 with my led I bleach them all. I am not an engineer like your friend but common send tells you there s something different

This is what I was I trying to get to the bottom of...

 

[oreo54]

One of the guys that I went to Engineering School with now works Phillips in Europe. Although totally possible right now, if diodes were made the same way as MH or T5s with wide bands of phosphors and wide spectrum, then there is no energy savings and the diodes would have smallish shelf lives of around 5-8K hours. The real efficiences and draw are to cut spectrum and save power - 8 watts to light a hallway when all that is needed is a narrow band of visible light. He works on power supplies and their main clients are for general lighting... .

forward looking.............

“It is only a matter of time before white LEDs using blue LED chips will disappear from the market,” said Shuji Nakamura at a forum on GaN technology in July organized by Nikkei Asian Review. The comment from the inventor of the blue LED chip and Nobel Laureate shocked the industry. Nakamura shares a Nobel Prize in Physics with two Japanese inventors Isamu Akasaki and Hiroshi Amano for their invention of the blue LED. Yet, Nakamura’s recent remark completely derails his previous accomplishments. Industry insiders in China try to decode Nakamura’s comments to determine whether it reflects embedded flaws in blue LEDs design, or whether his motive is to promote Soraa’s purple LEDs.
The advantages of purple LEDs

It will be difficult to determine the motive of Nakamura’s comment, but an objective comparison can be drawn between purple and blue LEDs.

Purple LED potential and outlook was affirmed by Wu Hong. “White light efficiency is higher when converted from purple LEDs, lighting distribution is more uniform, and has better CRI,” he said. “These can cut energy, reduce carbon emission, and improve lighting quality. All these carry significant meaning. Even though it has not become widespread on the market because of its high pricing, its advantages are quite obvious.”

What specific advantages does white LEDs made from purple LEDs have?

1. High CRI. When white light is created from exciting phosphor coated on purple LEDs, the peak wavelength of the blue light is not as intense. Moreover, the output encompasses all visible light wavelengths. Hence, CRI is much higher, and closer to ideal white light found in sunlight. It has a high red CRI R9, and can reach Ra 95.
2. High luminous efficacy:

• Purple LEDs are manufactured using GaN substrates, and the chip is produced by placing GaN semiconductors on a GaN substrate. In short, this is a type of GaN-on-GaN LED. GaN semiconductors have better crystal quality, and higher purple LED luminous efficiency. Its luminous efficiency has risen rapidly.
• Purple LED chips are usually triangular, compared to normal LED chips rectangular shape. The triangular purple LED’s luminescent layer has better light emittance compared to square shaped LEDs. Due to purple LEDs high crystal quality and good light extraction efficiency, its wall-plug efficiency (WPE) can reach 84%. Average blue LEDs WPE in general is between 50% to 60%.
• Average blue LED chips are manufactured on sapphire substrates. Since GaN semiconductors tend to have a different lattice constant compared to sapphire, mismatches can occur and lead to flaws in the crystal. Mismatches almost never exist in GaN substrates, so the resulting crystals are normally flawless. Compared to sapphire substrate products, crystal mismatch can be lowered to about 1/1000.
• Another advantage of purple LED chips is its less likely to have droop issues. Droop occurs when the power from the driver is raised to increase the brightness of the chip, the issue of droop presents difficulties in increasing brightness in LED chips. In comparison, GaN-on-GaN’s higher crystal quality compared to sapphire substrates reduces droop. Hence, GaN-based products are able to drive voltages five to 10 times higher than sapphire substrate products.

Efficiencies still need improvement and blue phosphors "were" a problem that is supposedly solved..

Yes.. 2 whole years old...

 

[bif24701]

The burn from LEDs is from peaks too high in some diodes... they can harm coral. What is amazing is that the same peaks in other types of light are fine... 6500K MH can have massive amounts and corals flourish... same with 6500K T5s... get some 6500K white diodes and coral dies. I do not know of a single LED fixture that would have more output than a 6500K, or even 10K, 400W MH with PAR well over 800-1000 a few inches deep and probably 500 at the sandbed in most tanks... and the coral just thrives under these. Quantity is not the problem, it is quality.

One of the guys that I went to Engineering School with now works Phillips in Europe. Although totally possible right now, if diodes were made the same way as MH or T5s with wide bands of phosphors and wide spectrum, then there is no energy savings and the diodes would have smallish shelf lives of around 5-8K hours. The real efficiences and draw are to cut spectrum and save power - 8 watts to light a hallway when all that is needed is a narrow band of visible light. He works on power supplies and their main clients are for general lighting... to say that anybody cares too much about developing diodes just for reefing is a farce. He has told me a bunch of times that medical, dental and laboratory uses do make money, so maybe we will get lucky like with the Radium. This might not be happening very soon. I would think that there could be some intrigue by a wide range diode that might last 10+ years, but spending so much for 1-3 years of use does not have much of a value proposition.

That is some interesting stuff.

However it doesn’t explain why owners of older generation LED fixtures have big beautiful acropora and no need to replace them after 5+years. I think that maybe what you have been told is a bit in the past and doesn’t reflect the current fixtures proven performance. I generate 500+ PAR through my display with LEDs, could be more but my nutrient levels won’t allow that.

Problems with LEDs is spread but now fixtures are now produced that can nearly eliminate that. In the past new Reefers would start out with either PC/T5 fixtures that are far more forgiving of low/high nutrients due to even spread and no hot spots of 800 PAR. As they progressed in the hobby MH where the next step after gaining the skills needed to acclimate and feed corals as needed for such high PAR. Today though there are low cost LED fixtures that can produce hot spots with huge PAR numbers. These noobies didn’t understand what happens when corals are not acclimated slowly, provided correct nutrients, and provided a well mature system. So they and the corals suffered. Today now I see that it is being understood more that huge PAR numbers are not at all required and in fact will kill if not done with the upmost skill and monitoring.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

This is what I was I trying to get to the bottom of...

Not to take away anti ting from anybody, but it’s anecdotal.
Yea , probaly happened. Thy why is likely not the the light. Or source rather.
At the same time I’m speaking to folks on Led who are running thier lights on the Highly accurate “what percentage are you running” even though it a completely different tank depth and scape. When I have the same light and tell the the Par they are running and have been for a long time , they immediately turn it down. Cuz one wouldn’t expect a Xenia to take 500 - 700 par. But it does. Palys and zoas too.
Most anyone running a mars aqua or SB reeflight etc at 75% and less than 12in from the top of the tank is in fact giving the tank about 600+ par. Dudes are retroing bio cubes with them. Light Right on top of the water.

I do agree , not all led are equal. Some are messed up. But you can say the same about some mh and t5 too. I tend to think there needs to be a bit more of a specific there.

Kessils leds grow coral just fine. So does a radium.

 

[oreo54]

6500K white diodes and coral dies.

Can't imagine that has been well tested.................or current.


Interesting statement..maybe just add some extra blue/cyan..

Anyone want to try it Luxeon makes a "fresh fish" COB that would make a great test chip...
L2C5-FS001211E1900

 

[jda]

I just talked to him before Christmas. To get a diode that will cover a wide range say from UVA to Far-Red, like a MH, the diodes degrade pretty quickly. The people using older fixtures do not have this kind of spectrum width and the diodes can last longer. Current UV diodes have short life span.

Why would nobody expect Xenia to take 500-700 par? The stuff grows in lagoons sometimes in the open air or under a few inches or feet of water. I expect it to take 1200-1500 PAR. Z&P as well.

This is what I was I trying to get to the bottom of...

All of the supposition, theory and other things aside, the bottom line is that the quality is not as good and the coral do not respond the same. There is a lot of reasons and theory why that all turn into red herrings, some strawmen and a lot of excuses. When the excuses stop, real progress might get made by the manufacturers.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Can't imagine that has been well tested.................or current.


Interesting statement..maybe just add some extra blue/cyan..

Anyone want to try it Luxeon makes a "fresh fish" COB that would make a great test chip...
L2C5-FS001211E1900

That is weird. I’ve seen coral grown with a 48k Phillips led.