Par from T5 vs par from led

Discussion in 'Aquarium Lighting By Dana Riddle' started by Eric23, Feb 8, 2018.

  1. saltyfilmfolks

    saltyfilmfolks Lights! Camera! Reef! R2R Supporter Reef Squad Leader Photo of the Month Award R2R Excellence Award Build Thread Contributor

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    Where’d you pull the kessil spectrum from? That’s cool.
    I actually expaected to see more in the 500 525.
     
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  2. oreo5457

    oreo5457 Well-Known Member

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    Here.. :)
    stripped url..
    reef2reef.com/attachments/img_1711-png.518492/
     
  3. anthonys51

    anthonys51 Active Member

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    Might not be calling it right but each little led light is it’s own channel such as uv and such where t5 is a more even spread. Not explaining it correctly. But we are only talking par not kelvin or spectrum of light. It’s was you use a different light fir freshwater plants than corals
     
  4. anthonys51

    anthonys51 Active Member

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    This isn’t the same as a t5 bulb
    [​IMG]
    Each one is it’s own spotlight. It’s not as efficient as a t5 bulb. Not sure if I am explaining it righg
     
  5. Crabs Mcjones

    Crabs Mcjones Millepora Maniac Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Partner Member 2019 Reef Tank 365 Build Thread Contributor Article Contributor

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    I believe that BRS posts the spectral graphs in their brstv investigates for both the 360 and the AP700
     
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  6. oreo5457

    oreo5457 Well-Known Member

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    Well tubes are internally blended and yes there are separate color LED's but blending is also determined by beam angle, distance from "object", diode packing, and the amount of exit diffusion...
    At a certain point the only "colors" you would see are on the outside circle.
    [​IMG]
    http://www.newsshooter.com/2017/07/17/hive-wasp-100-c/
    The color seperation most see is mostly due to lensing effects.. be it surface disturbance or condensation..
    LED's CAN be manufactured to almost exactly like MH..

    Violet pump and RGB phosphors eliminating all of the difference...

    Someday......

    Oh doesn't have anything to do w/ PAR though..
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2018
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  7. oreo5457

    oreo5457 Well-Known Member

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    Kessil like most light manuf. be it sw or fw ignores it.

    Pet peeve of mine..
     
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  8. anthonys51

    anthonys51 Active Member

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    Yes I know. Par on a freshwater light and Reef light are the same but not the same for the colors. Also I understand your point. Just stated that led isn’t as effective or efficient at spreading the different spectrums of light as t5
     
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  9. saltyfilmfolks

    saltyfilmfolks Lights! Camera! Reef! R2R Supporter Reef Squad Leader Photo of the Month Award R2R Excellence Award Build Thread Contributor

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    eh , they all grow coral.
    Let’s not make it one of those debates.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2018
  10. chipmunkofdoom2

    chipmunkofdoom2 Always Making Something R2R Supporter Reef Squad R2R Excellence Award Article Contributor

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    Lol. I thought that as I saw the spectrum talk starting on the previous page. I thought "here we go again..."
     
  11. bif24701

    bif24701 Valuable Member Build Thread Contributor

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    If you go LED get a nice fixture with good spread like the Kessil AP700.
     
  12. jda

    jda Valuable Member

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    The burn from LEDs is from peaks too high in some diodes... they can harm coral. What is amazing is that the same peaks in other types of light are fine... 6500K MH can have massive amounts and corals flourish... same with 6500K T5s... get some 6500K white diodes and coral dies. I do not know of a single LED fixture that would have more output than a 6500K, or even 10K, 400W MH with PAR well over 800-1000 a few inches deep and probably 500 at the sandbed in most tanks... and the coral just thrives under these. Quantity is not the problem, it is quality.

    One of the guys that I went to Engineering School with now works Phillips in Europe. Although totally possible right now, if diodes were made the same way as MH or T5s with wide bands of phosphors and wide spectrum, then there is no energy savings and the diodes would have smallish shelf lives of around 5-8K hours. The real efficiences and draw are to cut spectrum and save power - 8 watts to light a hallway when all that is needed is a narrow band of visible light. He works on power supplies and their main clients are for general lighting... to say that anybody cares too much about developing diodes just for reefing is a farce. He has told me a bunch of times that medical, dental and laboratory uses do make money, so maybe we will get lucky like with the Radium. This might not be happening very soon. I would think that there could be some intrigue by a wide range diode that might last 10+ years, but spending so much for 1-3 years of use does not have much of a value proposition.
     
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  13. anthonys51

    anthonys51 Active Member

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    My friend used 400 watt mh in his 8 inch deep sps tank. They only run for 6 hours a day but yes par is like 800 and his sps are beautiful. If I ran 800 with my led I bleach them all. I am not an engineer like your friend but common send tells you there s something different
     
  14. Eric23

    Eric23 Active Member

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    This is what I was I trying to get to the bottom of...
     
  15. oreo5457

    oreo5457 Well-Known Member

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    forward looking............. ;)
    Efficiencies still need improvement and blue phosphors "were" a problem that is supposedly solved..

    Yes.. 2 whole years old...
     
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  16. bif24701

    bif24701 Valuable Member Build Thread Contributor

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    That is some interesting stuff.

    However it doesn’t explain why owners of older generation LED fixtures have big beautiful acropora and no need to replace them after 5+years. I think that maybe what you have been told is a bit in the past and doesn’t reflect the current fixtures proven performance. I generate 500+ PAR through my display with LEDs, could be more but my nutrient levels won’t allow that.

    Problems with LEDs is spread but now fixtures are now produced that can nearly eliminate that. In the past new Reefers would start out with either PC/T5 fixtures that are far more forgiving of low/high nutrients due to even spread and no hot spots of 800 PAR. As they progressed in the hobby MH where the next step after gaining the skills needed to acclimate and feed corals as needed for such high PAR. Today though there are low cost LED fixtures that can produce hot spots with huge PAR numbers. These noobies didn’t understand what happens when corals are not acclimated slowly, provided correct nutrients, and provided a well mature system. So they and the corals suffered. Today now I see that it is being understood more that huge PAR numbers are not at all required and in fact will kill if not done with the upmost skill and monitoring.
     
  17. saltyfilmfolks

    saltyfilmfolks Lights! Camera! Reef! R2R Supporter Reef Squad Leader Photo of the Month Award R2R Excellence Award Build Thread Contributor

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    Not to take away anti ting from anybody, but it’s anecdotal.
    Yea , probaly happened. Thy why is likely not the the light. Or source rather.
    At the same time I’m speaking to folks on Led who are running thier lights on the Highly accurate “what percentage are you running” even though it a completely different tank depth and scape. When I have the same light and tell the the Par they are running and have been for a long time , they immediately turn it down. Cuz one wouldn’t expect a Xenia to take 500 - 700 par. But it does. Palys and zoas too.
    Most anyone running a mars aqua or SB reeflight etc at 75% and less than 12in from the top of the tank is in fact giving the tank about 600+ par. Dudes are retroing bio cubes with them. Light Right on top of the water.

    I do agree , not all led are equal. Some are messed up. But you can say the same about some mh and t5 too. I tend to think there needs to be a bit more of a specific there.

    Kessils leds grow coral just fine. So does a radium.
     
  18. oreo5457

    oreo5457 Well-Known Member

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    Can't imagine that has been well tested.................or current.


    Interesting statement..maybe just add some extra blue/cyan..

    Anyone want to try it Luxeon makes a "fresh fish" COB that would make a great test chip...
    L2C5-FS001211E1900
     
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  19. jda

    jda Valuable Member

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    I just talked to him before Christmas. To get a diode that will cover a wide range say from UVA to Far-Red, like a MH, the diodes degrade pretty quickly. The people using older fixtures do not have this kind of spectrum width and the diodes can last longer. Current UV diodes have short life span.

    Why would nobody expect Xenia to take 500-700 par? The stuff grows in lagoons sometimes in the open air or under a few inches or feet of water. I expect it to take 1200-1500 PAR. Z&P as well.

    All of the supposition, theory and other things aside, the bottom line is that the quality is not as good and the coral do not respond the same. There is a lot of reasons and theory why that all turn into red herrings, some strawmen and a lot of excuses. When the excuses stop, real progress might get made by the manufacturers.
     
  20. saltyfilmfolks

    saltyfilmfolks Lights! Camera! Reef! R2R Supporter Reef Squad Leader Photo of the Month Award R2R Excellence Award Build Thread Contributor

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    That is weird. I’ve seen coral grown with a 48k Phillips led.
     
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