Par from T5 vs par from led

Discussion in 'Aquarium Lighting By Dana Riddle' started by Eric23, Feb 8, 2018.

  1. saltyfilmfolks

    saltyfilmfolks Lights! Camera! Reef! R2R Supporter Reef Squad Leader Photo of the Month Award R2R Excellence Award Build Thread Contributor

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    It’s actually not exuses. It discussion. It is in fact, theses discussions that make change.
    You may have noticed , they are now making t5 led hybreds.
    That came from right here with hobbiests.
    You may have noticed they are now making leds with diffusions. It’s impossible to rember how many diffusion threads I’ve been in over the last three years.
    This is how progress is made in fact.

    Novelist is making excuses. There are none. Led grow coral when it’s done correctly. We can suppose and keep referring to uv and far red as a superstitious cling to old tech when the biology still doesn’t support it.
    None that I have seen, I should say.

    And past red is heat. And if you look at a red led I have with a $3 spectrometer , it’s not just 660.
    In fact led builder guys get all bent that the spectrum of the colors get to broad. (Lol right?) they call it “dirty”, and start saying binning and cree and have a bunch of other justifications.
    IMO , the reason a mars or no name B.B. work so well is becuse the thing is a dirty spectral mess with too much blue and maybe too much green. Depending on the day it was built of course. They run out of stuff.


    As much as I have a life long passion for arc lamps , after I went 14mh (600paris at the top of a 20 in) then the radium, I went to an SB black box (was sad I couldn’t do the heat here) same basic par, in two weeks my acros sprouted and went nuts. I don’t know why. But that’s why I’m here looking to find out.
     
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  2. jda

    jda Valuable Member

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    This is where the premise of the pseudo science in marine lighting is bad. In every other realm, what happens in nature is the standard and you have to prove why stuff is not needed. In reefing, the opposite is true where folks assume that what happens in nature with evolution and adaptability is wrong and that we have to prove why specimens that have survived to use every ounce of energy available have it wrong. You are smart enough to know that UV and IR are helpful to coral - you don't need any studies for this.
     
  3. madweazl

    madweazl Valuable Member R2R Supporter Build Thread Contributor

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    Care to expand on this?
     
  4. oreo5457

    oreo5457 Active Member

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    speaking of pseudo-science..

    You know Corals have adapted to UV/ IR...but it's not because of the "good things" in it.

    Even the "good" effects of UV A is to repair/protect from other UV damage.

    .


    A lot of what we do is to take the "bad" out of nature and add more "good"...
    Depending on source, many coral generations never seen the sun..........


    Damage
    Yea I know terrestrial data...

    Nature rarely supplies the ideal environment.. just ones that are handle-able..

     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
  5. saltyfilmfolks

    saltyfilmfolks Lights! Camera! Reef! R2R Supporter Reef Squad Leader Photo of the Month Award R2R Excellence Award Build Thread Contributor

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    Point out the pseudo science please.

    And yes corals like to be warm.
     
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  6. mcarroll

    mcarroll moved on R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award

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    Model Nature
    You're right about modeling after nature.

    And I've even seen folks here on R2R cite some banal philosophical argument against modeling after nature – so it's a point that bears repeating: Nature is correct – but we may not understand why. ;)

    What is "correct" in nature isn't always obvious, and to complicate things, correct is usually even situational.

    A big part of the problem for us is that Normal ≠ Correct.

    That means it can take a lot of understanding and a lot of observation for us to glean "correct".

    Smart Enough
    All things considered, even "smart enough" has a moving definition.

    For example...

    I'm pretty sure we're all smart enough to know that Symbiodinium dino's are symbiotic with corals. Right?

    But right in the middle of being "smart enough" about it, you can stumble upon...

    Is the coral-algae symbiosis really ‘mutually beneficial’ for the partners?

    Wait, what? ;Facepalm

    There are too many examples like this to cite.

    Corals did not adapt to use every iota of energy available.

    They adapted to get what they need while protecting themselves from the rest.

    And their abilities for self-protection are amazing, but not unlimited.

    The in situ light microenvironment of corals is a good read.

    Dana has writing on the topic that's more digestible though...read everything you can find by him on irradiance, pigments, emission spectra, etc. :)

    Caveat Emptor (as usual)
    In many areas of the hobby, info and data on the nature of things are just lacking, even to the scientific community.
    (For an example, try to find some research on any of the blue damsels we keep in the hobby.)


    In many areas, info in the hobby on the nature of things is pure bunk-o.

    In many areas, the info we have is just the tip of the iceberg.

    So at least IMO understanding is possible, but there are some fairly serious gotchas to look out for on your way there. ;)
     
  7. TexasTodd

    TexasTodd Active Member

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    Can some LED's burn corals at what would be seen as low PAR? I'm NOT talking about spread or hot spots, I'm asking about a spot with the exact same PAR rating using LED vs T5 or MH.
    Thanks,

    Todd
     
  8. oreo5457

    oreo5457 Active Member

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    That question is more complicated that it looks.. ;)
     
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  9. Genomecop

    Genomecop Active Member R2R Supporter

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    So for someone like me..a noob..I was going to go all T5's, not because I'm a noob, but because I thought they would be good. Now I'm all confused!
     
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  10. TexasTodd

    TexasTodd Active Member

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    And that makes me think it all the more justified!
     
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  11. jda

    jda Valuable Member

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    It is complicated.

    With an identical PAR reading, the T5 and MH will have more output than a LED since the PAR meter cannot capture all of their useful output, but it will get most of the output from a current LED that has not really any IR or UV to speak of... so an identical PAR reading will not yield the same output. Knowing this, it also depends on the coral... some will burn with too much of any light and some will burn just when you turn the LEDs up. Then, it depends on the type LED and lenses. Water clarity matters to a degree. There are also many more factors.

    I am only into acropora, so I do not know about the others, but I have a friend that will burn acropora with 250-275 PAR of white channel from a RB Photon V2. He can go up to about 450 with the blues if he keeps the whites low. I cannot burn the same acros with 750+ PAR of white MH. This is only just an anecdote.

    If you keep the LEDs low enough, some coral appear to be able to "fight them off." Some do not suffer at all. A lot of this depends on what you keep. Most LED burning is to acropora and some harder to keep stuff. Some high-light 'nems like Gigs and Mags will walk away from some LEDs, but they love 1000 par of MH or even sunlight in a few inches of water. Acropora, gigs and mags are not your run-of-the-mill corals for the typical hobbyist, though.

    If you are asking of LED can burn low-light coral, then yes. However, low-light coral is only low-light at a minimum. I grow rainbow chalice, bounce and jawbreaker mushrooms under 500+ PAR because they grow faster - these could do quite fine at 125-150 par, or so, but can also handle massive amounts of light. There are not too many corals that have an issue with too much high-quality light.... there are some.
     
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  12. TexasTodd

    TexasTodd Active Member

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    Interesting. This happens to be under a RB V1 on a used 150g system I recently purchased. I kept the lights at the same setting on purpose but have cleaned things up quite a bit. I've kept lots of high end acros in the past, but never with LED. This system came with some low end acros and some encrusting montis plus lots of LPS etc. The Acros are doing fine at around 250-275 PAR mostly with a mix of 50/50 for the two channels and a max of 30% on both, except, he had the blues at 100% for about an hour early afternoon.

    The encrusting montis are getting torched at 115-125 PAR while I have caps, Valida, Green Slimer, an another unknown fine at the higher par. Rose Nem happy as can be at about 150 PAR same with some LPS like hammers etc.
     
  13. saltyfilmfolks

    saltyfilmfolks Lights! Camera! Reef! R2R Supporter Reef Squad Leader Photo of the Month Award R2R Excellence Award Build Thread Contributor

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    I would say no.
    In general.

    To be simple , the same spectrum and par level intensity, no.

    A slightly complicated answer , you can have a single Nm of Light that is say , 100 par on the meter , and that single spectrum intensity over time can “burn “ or is just bad. Yes.

    Red was a big fear for that for a long time as most only read the title of a certain article on it and not the content.

    So 200 par with a big spike of a color can be bad. (Coral greening is being looked at right now from blue or violet overdose)

    T5 and halide don’t seem to have this problem in general as it’s pretty analogue in spectral distribution.
    Led you can tweak spikes badly.

    Confused yet ? Lol.

    Fwiw , I really never see it happen here in 100000”s of threads.
    Only greening really.
     
  14. jda

    jda Valuable Member

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    V1 RB and even the V2 can burn coral... mostly SPS. You can search on this issue. You are right to keep the whites below 30%, IMO. This is a quality thing, not a quantity thing.

    In general, I only ever hear of it with white LED spectrum and SPS, but mostly acropora.
     
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  15. TexasTodd

    TexasTodd Active Member

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    Thanks jda. I may knock the whites back. Will replace it eventually but just spent quite a bit on the system.
     
  16. saltyfilmfolks

    saltyfilmfolks Lights! Camera! Reef! R2R Supporter Reef Squad Leader Photo of the Month Award R2R Excellence Award Build Thread Contributor

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    Thanks man , I’ll look at that.

    I’d disagree a bit only as white is relative from manufacturer to manufacturer. I run a 1:1 WB with SB leds and get greening only on a couple deep water corals.
    I got massive greening with my last lights at higher pars. I even greened a ricordia in the sand bed. Lol. No matter the ratio I used.
    Others with SBs have reported greening in some , but use higher bile ratios.than I do. Leads me to suspect somthing in the blue or violet range.
     
  17. saltyfilmfolks

    saltyfilmfolks Lights! Camera! Reef! R2R Supporter Reef Squad Leader Photo of the Month Award R2R Excellence Award Build Thread Contributor

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    I’m not getting any hits on V1 RB and V2.
    Can you point me in the right direction ?
     
  18. jda

    jda Valuable Member

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    I am not saying that all whites will do it... only that when it happens, it seems to be whites that are the issue.

    We could probably start another thread on greening of corals, but light is only one small factor, IMO.
     
  19. saltyfilmfolks

    saltyfilmfolks Lights! Camera! Reef! R2R Supporter Reef Squad Leader Photo of the Month Award R2R Excellence Award Build Thread Contributor

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    That’s cool. What the V1 v2 thing?
     
  20. jda

    jda Valuable Member

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    The Version 1 and Version 2 of the ReefBreeders Photon. You might have to go RC since the V1 is not very new, but everybody will caution folks to keep the whites under 30-40%.
     
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