Phosphate Issues

[king_reem23]

Hi Everyone -

I'm new here and have been lurking for a while, but finally am experiencing something for which I could use some tailored advice. Would appreciate thoughts from anyone.

Background: I ran a fishless cycle over the course of a month in late December / January. The tank completely cycled before I went ahead and got my clowns.
Livestock: I have CUC (Nassarius and Astrea snails; hermits; a small strawberry conch); 2 picasso clowns.
Tank: 40G IM AIO Cube; I run an IM protein skimmer, have a power head too and then an ATO reservoir down beneath the tank; I use and rotate out filter socks every week or two as well. In my media caddy, i have a carbon pack, a couple of GFO packs, and then some off those floss balls.

Aside from a downed Nassarius snail, we haven't had any casualties and everyone seems pretty happy in the tank.

In late February, I wanted to try my hand at some soft / easy (and hearty) corals so i picked up a couple of Hanna checkers for Phosphate and Alkalinity. I want to my LFS after testing because my phsophates were high (.92 ppm) and my alk was low (6.3). I was told to come back a week later after dosing 10 ml of All for Reef (mainly for the alk) and then 6ml of Phosphate-E. The alk has come up to 8.8 and i've been regularly (daily) testing it and have been pleased with the consistency between 8.5 and 9. Still not where I want it to be but local LFS said it's fine. And, even though my phos is much higher than it should be, I was told not to worry and that the coral I purchased would be hearty enough to work through it until I bring it down. As a result, I ended up picking up a few coral frags on Saturday morning - one each of : Zoa, Duncan, Leather. The duncan looks like he's doing well, as does the leather (though a bit less so). The zoa, however, only appears to open up in the morning for a bit and then has been pretty closed the rest of the time.

The problem with the phos... my phos appears to be increasing despite dosing phosphate-E every day. I've also seen that too much use of this product could have some bad effects so I am already weary about it. Below I list how my phosphate has been all over the place over the last couple of weeks. I am using a hanna checker so feel quite confident about the readings. Could someone please share some thoughts on what I can do here?

I've also included a couple of photos if helpful. FWIW I think i was overfeeding initially, but right now i basically do one turkey baster of tank water with some frozen food and some flake.

Phos
3/9 - .92
3/10- .86
3/11 - .66
3/12 - .29
3/13 - .38
3/14 - .72
3/15 - .57
3/16 - .91

Other parameters on 3/16
- Ammonia - 0
- Nitrite - 0
- Nitrate - 20-30ppm
- Alk - 8.8
- Phos - .91

 

[Subsea]

I see this is your first post; welcome to r2r.

Aside from bacteria in a bottle, what is the source of your biological filtration? What is the source of your rock & sand?

With respect to your increasing inorganic phosphate, consider that your rock may be the source of phosphate, depending on where it came from.

PS: I think your tank sandbed may be too new for a conch.

 

[get-salty]

You didnt mention anything about your water change routine (?) Are you doing any ?

Im putting my finger on the dry rocks you used. The system will have high p04 for quite awhile and eventually itll stable out.

This is what i would do..
Dont run the carbon daily as it can remove trace elements.
GFO is fine for removing p04 - you're good there.
and most importantly is water changes, it will also help removing the p04.

Keep doing what you're doing and be patient. The p04 level will drop but it wont happen over night.

Lastly, what is your lighting situation ? It may be that your lights are too high or too low... why some of your corals are closing.

 

[king_reem23]

Thank you! I used a rag alive sand and dry rock when starting. I also attempted to seed some copepods a few weeks ago.

 

[king_reem23]

You didnt mention anything about your water change routine (?) Are you doing any ?

Im putting my fingers on the dry rocks you used. The system will have high p04 for quite awhile and eventually itll stable out.

This is what i would do..
Dont run the carbon daily as it can remove trace elements.
GFO is fine for removing p04 - you're good there.
and most importantly is water changes, it will also help removing the p04.

Keep doing what you're doing and be patient. The p04 level will drop but it wont happen over night.

Lastly, what is your lighting situation ? It may be that your lights are too high or too low.

Thank you for the note! I will cut the carbon. I’ve been doing water changes every couple of weeks since I got the fish about 5 weeks ago. But maybe I should increase to weekly?

I’m using one Kessil 360x tuna. I am candidly struggling to figure out the intensity to use. I watched the BRS video on the light which seems to contemplate 100% intensity. Currently I’m running about 9 hours with lights with peak at 36 (down from peak at 72 from this weekend).

 

[Subsea]

Dry rock is not very descriptive. What is the source of the rock? Depending on its history, determines what may leach from it.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I agree that, assuming the test is accurate, that the rock may be the source, and if you do not have tangs in the water, then using more lanthanum (such as the brand you are using now) will lower phosphate.

That said, I'm not certain lowering it is needed, but doing so now is easier than doing it later when there is more fish risk.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thank you for the note! I will cut the carbon. I’ve been doing water changes every couple of weeks since I got the fish about 5 weeks ago. But maybe I should increase to weekly?

I’m using one Kessil 360x tuna. I am candidly struggling to figure out the intensity to use. I watched the BRS video on the light which seems to contemplate 100% intensity. Currently I’m running about 9 hours with lights with peak at 36 (down from peak at 72 from this weekend).

I personally do not think the GAC should be reduced out of fear for binding some trace elements. There is no way to reduce organics or nutrients without potentially taking down some trace elements as well, and I think that the effect of GAC is not very strong in that regard.

 

[king_reem23]

Dry rock is not very descriptive. What is the source of the rock? Depending on its history, determines what may leach from it.

I wish I could give you more. It was just what my LFS was selling I. Their dry rock section! If that’s the issue, is there any way to resolve it or is dosing phosphate e (or something else) all there is to be done? I’ve got some phosi-x inbound.

 

[Subsea]

I wish I could give you more. It was just what my LFS was selling I. Their dry rock section! If that’s the issue, is there any way to resolve it or is dosing phosphate e (or something else) all there is to be done? I’ve got some phosi-x inbound.

Randy already commented on your phosphate. I would not over react..

I am not big on cycling with dry rock and wet sand. Those bacteria are not long lived in a reef tank.

 

[Dom]

Hi Everyone -

I'm new here and have been lurking for a while, but finally am experiencing something for which I could use some tailored advice. Would appreciate thoughts from anyone.

Background: I ran a fishless cycle over the course of a month in late December / January. The tank completely cycled before I went ahead and got my clowns.
Livestock: I have CUC (Nassarius and Astrea snails; hermits; a small strawberry conch); 2 picasso clowns.
Tank: 40G IM AIO Cube; I run an IM protein skimmer, have a power head too and then an ATO reservoir down beneath the tank; I use and rotate out filter socks every week or two as well. In my media caddy, i have a carbon pack, a couple of GFO packs, and then some off those floss balls.

Aside from a downed Nassarius snail, we haven't had any casualties and everyone seems pretty happy in the tank.

In late February, I wanted to try my hand at some soft / easy (and hearty) corals so i picked up a couple of Hanna checkers for Phosphate and Alkalinity. I want to my LFS after testing because my phsophates were high (.92 ppm) and my alk was low (6.3). I was told to come back a week later after dosing 10 ml of All for Reef (mainly for the alk) and then 6ml of Phosphate-E. The alk has come up to 8.8 and i've been regularly (daily) testing it and have been pleased with the consistency between 8.5 and 9. Still not where I want it to be but local LFS said it's fine. And, even though my phos is much higher than it should be, I was told not to worry and that the coral I purchased would be hearty enough to work through it until I bring it down. As a result, I ended up picking up a few coral frags on Saturday morning - one each of : Zoa, Duncan, Leather. The duncan looks like he's doing well, as does the leather (though a bit less so). The zoa, however, only appears to open up in the morning for a bit and then has been pretty closed the rest of the time.

The problem with the phos... my phos appears to be increasing despite dosing phosphate-E every day. I've also seen that too much use of this product could have some bad effects so I am already weary about it. Below I list how my phosphate has been all over the place over the last couple of weeks. I am using a hanna checker so feel quite confident about the readings. Could someone please share some thoughts on what I can do here?

I've also included a couple of photos if helpful. FWIW I think i was overfeeding initially, but right now i basically do one turkey baster of tank water with some frozen food and some flake.

Very nice tank!

Yes, it has been my experience that overfeeding was the biggest factor. And that happened because I wanted to feed heavier to get my nutrient levels up.

I've also learned that phosphate management is like dieting; if you have more calories coming out than going in, you lose weight. So has been my experience with phosphate in my tank.

You also have the added layer of the phosphate leeching from rock. Live rock will absorb phosphate from the water, but will also release it into the water when phosphate level in the water is less than what is in the rock.

I operate a turf scrubber, which has been very helpful in bringing my phosphate down to an acceptable range. But with an AIO, I imagine it would have to be something of a HOB/external device variety.

I choose to do water changes; I find them to be beneficial.

It is my experience that water changes are a good way of exporting nutrient from your tank. Also, water changes will replenish elements consumed by corals. It is for this reason that I disagree with dosing anything this early in your tank's history. But as your corals grow and demand more, dosing will become necessary.

My preference is to be conservative in my approach. I would stop dosing and begin faithful, weekly, 20% water changes, monitor for the next 6-8 weeks and then reassess.

Dom

 

[Marco_99]

Two things. Weekly routine water changes for the first year at least I believe help keep things fairly consistent. Secondly you run filter socks for 1-2 weeks? Seems extremely long and that’s a lot of crud to be marinating in the water, 3-4 days seems more like a better practice. Dosing already to tinker with numbers when you have the corals you have is just a waste of time and further complicates your issues imo.

 

[get-salty]

Two things. Weekly routine water changes for the first year at least I believe help keep things fairly consistent. Secondly you run filter socks for 1-2 weeks? Seems extremely long and that’s a lot of crud to be marinating in the water, 3-4 days seems more like a better practice. Dosing already to tinker with numbers when you have the corals you have is just a waste of time and further complicates your issues imo.

Thats right!

For this setup, 3-4 days is ideal. Having it any longer than a week is just a holding cell for detritus and p04 buildup.

 

[king_reem23]

You all are terrific and so very helpful. I will take all of this into account and report back after a couple of weeks. So much of this hobby is made accessible through R2R and other forums!

 

[BriDroid]

I agree with the above. You need to change out the filter socks more than once a week. I change mine every 2 days, but 3 days would be my max.