Please help! New tanks are crashing right off the bat!

[brandon429]

next juncture


pick where you get your procedural information from

you have opposing info, select the path you want. Advising that changing all the water is a nuclear path to someone that's conducted ten thousand full water changes on the oldest nano reef on the site seems immediately suspect advice, but it's your choice in how to proceed. everything about your tank is now checked against the predictions set above.


what I would do: as large of a water change as you can muster, and when pouring back the new water you don't let it smash into sand and create a cloud, pump it back in very slowly where the hose drains over rocks at the top, or into a heavy glass bowl that sits on the bottom as the tank fills. refill without sand clouding: that's your challenge

after the refill add some alternate reef life to gauge with, mantis could be impacted by poor salinity management, contams, things we'll never know as unstated variables so get some alternate life in the tank as the test. after the big water change with careful pour back.

I was also looking in pics to see if you had clams, tunicates, degrading and decaying things on the rock but those are clean and common macroalgae that are doing fine and nothing's at rot there. choose your procedure path at this point based off advices logged

 

[brandon429]

the tank isn't crashing at all, it'll look that way tomorrow too.

the snail adhere to the front rock isn't dead

this is so far, a red sea test kit alert only, which is why this thread exists

Sustained Ammonia spikes are misreads

The reason you think your reef tank can’t control its ammonia is due to false training from old cycling science. That and you don’t own a seneye on the tank in question: if you did, you wouldn’t ever think your ammonia was out of control...

www.reef2reef.com

how are you ensuring your salinity is correct and that when you add animals they're acclimated the right way

the way a pet store tells you to acclimate, float the bag then dump in, isn't correct. it's about you testing your holding water from an animal you buy vs taking their word or not checking, then setting him into a subsystem that slowly brings up salinity over three days before it goes into your main display, if their shipping salinity water is really low salt which they almost always are.

and unless the mantis is dead, it may not be dying either and the test kit readout causes that attribution to odd behaviors. did you take a salinity reading of the mantis' holding water

 

[BeanAnimal]

DR Timms suck, another poster here mentioned same issue using Dr. Timms

It does not suck and this has absolutely nothing to do with bottled bacteria. It is about introducing a tremendous bio load into a tiny system.

 

[hexcolor reef]

It does not suck and this has absolutely nothing to do with bottled bacteria. It is about introducing a tremendous bio load on a tiny system.

Check my build thread I had 4 tangs + blenny and wrasse and a bout 20+ LPS coral in a 10 gallon tank. All healthy and still alive and doing excellent. It’s all about bacteria being able to break down that ammonia. And I use microbe lift to achieve what ever one frowns on.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Check my build thread I had 4 tangs + blenny and wrasse and a bout 20+ LPS coral in a 10 gallon tank. All healthy and still alive and doing excellent. It’s all about bacteria being able to break down that ammonia. And I use microbe lift to achieve what ever one frowns on.

Yes, I am aware of your thread. You are the guy who unfortunately thinks it is okay to put numerous tangs, wrasses and other unsuitable fish in a 10 gallon tank as an alternate and innovative way of doing things or however you tried to justify it. You are not frowned on because of your choice of bottled bacteria, you are frowned on because you refuse to understand what you are doing to those fish is insanely cruel.

With regard to this thread, uou are missing the point. Yes, we all know what the nitrogen cycle is. The issue here is the amount of "live but decaying" rock that he introduced into such a small volume of water. Two 10 pound lumps of rock into two different 10 gallon systems. One lump may not have significant fauna die off, the other may. You don't know how long the rock was out of water, what the temperature gradient was, how much much life was in/on the rock, etc.

Take his other chemistry into account (whatever it is) and it could amplify the problem.

 

[Fish Fan]

Guys, thank you for all the help and replies, I appreciate it very much, and I'm even starting to feel a little better.

There have been so many replies, I'm sorry if I don't reply to everyone individually, but let me see if I can add some stuff here that may help.

Nothing in the tanks (macro algae, snails, hermits, mythrax crab and gorilla crabs (sent as a mantis "snack") are dying, in fact them seem pretty good. The only thing is the mantis is missing. The tank does not smell even a little. So maybe I over reacted by saying they are crashing. I think the mantis is what's got me so worried.

I get that when you ship rock there's going to be die off, I just had hoped the rock and sand would more quickly catch up than what I'm experiencing now. Of course, it could be that my test kits are terrible. I have never before used the Red Sea test kit, but I decided to try it this time because I genuinely thought it was really popular with reefers here; clearly not lol!

I have never in the past had a problem doing a near 100% water change, but that was definitely only in the event of a severe emergency. I considered my ammonia going over 1.2 mg/L a severe emergency, hence the large and frequent water changes.

I followed the directions from TBS for acclimating and adding the livestock to the tanks. The sand bag was opened, stirred, and the water poured off before the sand was poured in the tank. I took the rock out piece by piece and placed it in a bucket with heated saltwater, gave it a swirl to remove anything loose, and then placed it in the tank. I didn't notice any bad odor or anything that was obviously dead.

The critters I typically drip acclimate, but this time I did the open the bag and roll it down so it floats open in the tank, I then slowly added tank water little by little. Last, I scoop all the critter and placed them in the tank and discarded the shipping water.

My tanks are running at 35 ppt right now. I have two ATO's, but honestly haven't even set them up yet. I'm hand topping for now, and it's not even problem because I'm doing so many water changes. My water change water is in a 32 gallon Brute, it's kept at 35 ppt, and I check both the tanks and the bucket frequently with a Milwaukee digital refractometer.

Thanks again for everyone's help!

 

[WhatCouldGoWrong71]

Folks if one collects and ships 10 pounds of live rock to somebody and they dump it in 10 gallons of water, there is going to be a spike. To argue any differently is to be wholly naive to what is occurring,

No wonder the OP is confused… give it ten mins and somebody will be telling him he needs to dose phosphate.

Exactly what happened to me. System couldn’t handle it, even with seeded bio media from my matured tank, which was a surprise to me. Ammonia spiked. Even that didn’t eradicate the vermited snails (spelling?). Even cycled it couldn’t handle adding 3 small fish in a short window.

 

[Fish Fan]

Exactly what happened to me. System couldn’t handle it, even with seeded bio media from my matured tank, which was a surprise to me. Ammonia spiked. Even that didn’t eradicate the vermited snails (spelling?). Even cycled it couldn’t handle adding 3 small fish in a short window.

Yes, but didn't you mention that you had a horrible smell as well? My tanks don't smell at all?

Thanks again for your reply.

@BeanAnimal I think you're right and I should have known better. I just think it's a little too much in such a small tank. Maybe it would have gone more smoothly if I had a larger tank. Thanks again for your help!

 

[WhatCouldGoWrong71]

the tank isn't crashing at all, it'll look that way tomorrow too.

the snail adhere to the front rock isn't dead

this is so far, a red sea test kit alert only, which is why this thread exists

Sustained Ammonia spikes are misreads

The reason you think your reef tank can’t control its ammonia is due to false training from old cycling science. That and you don’t own a seneye on the tank in question: if you did, you wouldn’t ever think your ammonia was out of control...

www.reef2reef.com

how are you ensuring your salinity is correct and that when you add animals they're acclimated the right way

the way a pet store tells you to acclimate, float the bag then dump in, isn't correct. it's about you testing your holding water from an animal you buy vs taking their word or not checking, then setting him into a subsystem that slowly brings up salinity over three days before it goes into your main display, if their shipping salinity water is really low salt which they almost always are.

and unless the mantis is dead, it may not be dying either and the test kit readout causes that attribution to odd behaviors. did you take a salinity reading of the mantis' holding water

Interesting. I’ve not thought about testing the water that is in the bag when you bring a fish home for salinity. @brandon429 would you match QT to bag then bring QT to display parameters over that 3 days?

 

[Fish Fan]

Interesting. I’ve not thought about testing the water that is in the bag when you bring a fish home for salinity. @brandon429 would you match QT to bag then bring QT to display parameters over that 3 days?

Many fish stores and dealers run at lower than typical salinity to save on salt. So yes, this is best practice. But I added some hermits and crabs, I did it slowly, and I think they did fine.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Nothing in the tanks (macro algae, snails, hermits, mythrax crab and gorilla crabs (sent as a mantis "snack") are dying, in fact them seem pretty good. The only thing is the mantis is missing. The tank does not smell even a little. So maybe I over reacted by saying they are crashing. I think the mantis is what's got me so worried.

Any time that rock is transported and transplanted like that, there will be fauna that perishes. Some of it you may see, most if it you will not.

I get that when you ship rock there's going to be die off, I just had hoped the rock and sand would more quickly catch up than what I'm experiencing now. Of course, it could be that my test kits are terrible. I have never before used the Red Sea test kit, but I decided to try it this time because I genuinely thought it was really popular with reefers here; clearly not lol!

I wouldn't rely so much on the kits as a metric (that is what Brandon is trying to say in is (well meaning but always overly wordy wandering) responses. Things will settle out soon. A few big water changes (gentle) will help keep things in check until they do.

 

[WhatCouldGoWrong71]

Yes, but didn't you mention that you had a horrible smell as well? My tanks don't smell at all?

Thanks again for your reply.

@BeanAnimal I think you're right and I should have known better. I just think it's a little too much in such a small tank. Maybe it would have gone more smoothly if I had a larger tank. Thanks again for your help!

Yeah, but think about the expo load I dumped in (70 pounds into a 65G system). Ratio is close to yours but quantity is way more with what I did, plus I had lots of critters due to the volume of rock. Once that ammonia spiked, it was lights out. My system puked when it tried to digest it. At the end of the day I want the look and bio that the rocks bring, for that instant tank deal. I’m just going to add a step from when I get it till it goes in my display. Your mileage will vary. I’m simply showing that while these rock are GREAT and the vendors are even BETTER, it’s a ton for a system to try and keep up with. It’s funny, the bumble bees did their job and eliminated 95% of the V snails, but 5 months later some of those organics are now starting to come back. I’m guessing that’s good.

 

[Fish Fan]

Any time that rock is transported and transplanted like that, there will be fauna that perishes. Some of it you may see, most if it you will not.



I wouldn't rely so much on the kits as a metric (that is what Brandon is trying to say in is (well meaning but always overly wordy wandering) responses. Things will settle out soon. A few big water changes (gentle) will help keep things in check until they do.

Thank you again, that’s much clearer now. I keep going with the water changes. I think one mistake I’m making is that I’m disturbing the sand too much. I will try adding the water back more slowly. I think as long as things are not obviously dying off I’m in better shape than I feared. I just wish that mantis would turn up.

Yeah, but think about the expo load I dumped in (70 pounds into a 65G system). Ratio is close to yours but quantity is way more with what I did, plus I had lots of critters due to the volume of rock. Once that ammonia spiked, it was lights out. My system puked when it tried to digest it. At the end of the day I want the look and bio that the rocks bring, for that instant tank deal. I’m just going to add a step from when I get it till it goes in my display. Your mileage will vary. I’m simply showing that while these rock are GREAT and the vendors are even BETTER, it’s a ton for a system to try and keep up with. It’s funny, the bumble bees did their job and eliminated 95% of the V snails, but 5 months later some of those organics are now starting to come back. I’m guessing that’s good.

I see your point about the added volume and livestock. Yeah, I think I got caught up in this idea of a nearly instant tank, but there’s really no such thing. And I’m not even an impatient reefer, but I figured if I could have an instant tank, then why not. That has not been my experience thus far. Thanks again.

 

[brandon429]

that rock you bought isn't necessarily skip cycle rock (but three weeks of curing with not much benthic growth to die off is plenty of time) this kind is below = rocks that are pre cured from a pet store (fifty running examples of no-risk skip cycle setups, the cycle can't be fouled or broken or delayed just in this case of pre cured rocks)

A thread tracking pure skip cycle instant reefs, no bottle bac

THE GOLDEN EXAMPLE OF A SKIP CYCLE DAY 1 REEF https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/octo-high-end-sps-skip-cycle-build.713256/ read that entire thread before you read ours. that's the heart of skip cycling. Everything we do going forward in this thread reflects on that ability above, in the #1...

www.reef2reef.com

those were all true, no test skip cycle reefs that always skip cycle no matter how many times the rocks are relocated. they don't even partially cycle: they skip cycle with no catch or downside or risk

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

Nothing in the tanks (macro algae, snails, hermits, mythrax crab and gorilla crabs (sent as a mantis "snack") are dying, in fact them seem pretty good.

If the inverts are doing well, then your ammonia is not super high.

Others have posted good advice; mine is just my go-to safety net -- add a bottle of Fritz Turbo Start (or split it between the tanks) to boost your nitrifying bacteria. Not sure if you actually need to at this point though.

 

[hexcolor reef]

Yes, I am aware of your thread. You are the guy who unfortunately thinks it is okay to put numerous tangs, wrasses and other unsuitable fish in a 10 gallon tank as an alternate and innovative way of doing things or however you tried to justify it. You are not frowned on because of your choice of bottled bacteria, you are frowned on because you refuse to understand what you are doing to those fish is insanely cruel.

With regard to this thread, uou are missing the point. Yes, we all know what the nitrogen cycle is. The issue here is the amount of "live but decaying" rock that he introduced into such a small volume of water. Two 10 pound lumps of rock into two different 10 gallon systems. One lump may not have significant fauna die off, the other may. You don't know how long the rock was out of water, what the temperature gradient was, how much much life was in/on the rock, etc.

Take his other chemistry into account (whatever it is) and it could amplify the problem.

You’ll be able to calm your anxiety, I recently moved all tangs out of the Nano

 

[LiverockRocks]

Hey there @Fish Fan,

Why not email us if you have a concern?
From what I have skimmed through reading and from seeing photos of the tanks, the only problem seems to be the missing mantis? If the other critters in the tanks are not dying, the mantis is not dead. With the various water changes and removing rock, the mantis is probably deep in a crevasse. Give it time and one day you will be pleased to see it. If you don't see it after a few weeks, lmk, we are happy to credit you for the mantis, np.

If the products smelled good coming out of the bags, creatures are living, macro algae looks happy, sponge is still purple, combined with your good husbandry standards; I believe the test kits are causing you much stress.
I would not add any bottled products, the good stuff is already in the tanks.

Email us if you'd like to chat further.
Rock on.

 

[Fish Fan]

If the inverts are doing well, then your ammonia is not super high.

Others have posted good advice; mine is just my go-to safety net -- add a bottle of Fritz Turbo Start (or split it between the tanks) to boost your nitrifying bacteria. Not sure if you actually need to at this point though.

Thank you for your reply! I started the tanks with Doctor Tim's bacteria and I've been dosing Microbacter7 last four days.

I was upset this morning looking at the ammonia test after all these water changes, but I'm realizing that the tank looks good, everything seems happy, so maybe I'm not in as bad of shape as I feared. Thanks again for your reply!

 

[Fish Fan]

Hey there @Fish Fan,

Why not email us if you have a concern?
From what I have skimmed through reading and from seeing photos of the tanks, the only problem seems to be the missing mantis? If the other critters in the tanks are not dying, the mantis is not dead. With the various water changes and removing rock, the mantis is probably deep in a crevasse. Give it time and one day you will be pleased to see it. If you don't see it after a few weeks, lmk, we are happy to credit you for the mantis, np.

If the products smelled good coming out of the bags, creatures are living, macro algae looks happy, sponge is still purple, combined with your good husbandry standards; I believe the test kits are causing you much stress.
I would not add any bottled products, the good stuff is already in the tanks.

Email us if you'd like to chat further.
Rock on.

Hi guys! I did not contact you because I am in no way unhappy with your products or service. I mentioned in my first post how great it was to work with you, and to be clear I am very, very happy with what I received from TBS. No part of me is looking for a credit or anything more from you guys. I sincerely apologize if this seemed like I was knocking you or your products, that was never my intent.

I was, however, upset with myself and questioning my husbandry skills, and I typically come to R2R for husbandry advice.

And in fact, when these tanks stabilize, and I hope they do soon, I'm looking forward to ordering more of your rock as I think each tank could use just a little more.

I'm starting to realize that the test kit may in fact be the root of all my stress. The tank looks fine otherwise. It doesn't make sense that I can see such high ammonia for 5 straight days and I haven't lost anything, except the mantis that is not confirmed dead and may yet be hiding in a rock. I have another brand of test kit I'm going to try just to see what is says, but I'm less worried about things after all these replies and a little thought.

Thanks very much for your reply!

 

[LiverockRocks]

Hi guys! I did not contact you because I am in no way unhappy with your products or service. I mentioned in my first post how great it was to work with you, and to be clear I am very, very happy with what I received from TBS. No part of me is looking for a credit or anything more from you guys. I sincerely apologize if this seemed like I was knocking you or your products, that was never my intent.

I was, however, upset with myself and questioning my husbandry skills, and I typically come to R2R for husbandry advice.

And in fact, when these tanks stabilize, and I hope they do soon, I'm looking forward to ordering more of your rock as I think each tank could use just a little more.

I'm starting to realize that the test kit may in fact be the root of all my stress. The tank looks fine otherwise. It doesn't make sense that I can see such high ammonia for 5 straight days and I haven't lost anything, except the mantis that is not confirmed dead and may yet be hiding in a rock. I have another brand of test kit I'm going to try just to see what is says, but I'm less worried about things after all these replies and a little thought.

Thanks very much for your reply!

No offense taken %.
We really are here for TBS customers not only before delivery but after. Your success and enjoyment from our products is the goal. Please reach out with any questions and I’m serious about the mantis. Let us know.