Please STOP CIPROFLOXACIN DIPS and other antibiotics

workhz

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Would be good to have some data. Common sense dictates that we don’t use things we don’t need and resistance is definitely a thing but what is the predicted contribution from the hobby relative to all other things?

Kinda feels like more of a peeing in the ocean vs peeing in the tub type of thing so actual data would be nice.
 

livinlifeinBKK

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Would be good to have some data. Common sense dictates that we don’t use things we don’t need and resistance is definitely a thing but what is the predicted contribution from the hobby relative to all other things?

Kinda feels like more of a peeing in the ocean vs peeing in the tub type of thing so actual data would be nice.
Again, i think it's one of those things where you do what's within your power to slow down the resistance rather than just saying "someone else had a much bigger impact so it's 'more' his fault"
 

olonmv

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Again, i think it's one of those things where you do what's within your power to slow down the resistance rather than just saying "someone else had a much bigger impact so it's 'more' his fault"
I think what’s tryna be said is that goin after the ones really making the impact is where focus needs to be. Not on a bunch of fish loving folk that couldn’t hold a candle to the amount farms dump. Kinda like asking the guy who dumped a glass full of toxins into a river to stop his madness and ignoring the company up steam dumping hundreds of gallons in.
 

livinlifeinBKK

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I think what’s tryna be said is that goin after the ones really making the impact is where focus needs to be. Not on a bunch of fish loving folk that couldn’t hold a candle to the amount farms dump. Kinda like asking the guy who dumped a glass full of toxins into a river to stop his madness and ignoring the company up steam dumping hundreds of gallons in.
Doesn't the guy pouring the glass full of toxins contribute to the degradation of the environment in that case as well? Is it ok for him to do it since someone else is worse? Are people who rob gas stations less guilty of a crime than those who launder millions and therefore should go unpunished? I think everyone who contributes bears a responsibility even though someone else might be "worse"...just my opinion though
 
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I think what’s tryna be said is that goin after the ones really making the impact is where focus needs to be. Not on a bunch of fish loving folk that couldn’t hold a candle to the amount farms dump. Kinda like asking the guy who dumped a glass full of toxins into a river to stop his madness and ignoring the company up steam dumping hundreds of gallons in.

Non-hobbists and companies are not just dumping one of the best antibiotics down the drain where the specific bacteria we need to treat often lives. We are inventing a dangerous thing. That’s what I’m trying to alert.

And just to be clear, my post is not about specific treatments. It is about DIPs…
 
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Doesn't the guy pouring the glass full of toxins contribute to the degradation of the environment in that case as well? Is it ok for him to do it since someone else is worse? Are people who rob gas stations less guilty of a crime than those who launder millions and therefore should go unpunished? I think everyone who contributes bears a responsibility even though someone else might be "worse"...just my opinion though

Your answer:


Nothing. But this is totally related to bacterial resistance.

Antibiotics are a chemical weapon developed to work well once bacteria have not previously been exposed to it.

Let me give a more specific insight:

One of the most prevalent bateria that causes urinary tract infection is Escherichia coli. It lives usually in our gastrointestinal tract, but it also lives very well on waste waters.

Once we throw fresh antibiotics that are very important to treat this bacteria on the drain it naturally gets resistant to the medication after natural selection.

This resistant bacteria no longer dies with that medication and can even “transfer” this resistence information to other bacteria using plasmids.

Cipro is a very special and important antibiotic in medicine. Once bacteria is resistant to it we usually have to use a stronger one. In practical terms, the stronger choices usually require a much more complex treatment with intravenous in-hospital antibiotics. This person being treated inside the hospital creates the oportunity for the bacteria to become resistant to the most strong medicantions.

This sequence of events do not require large amounts of antibiotics to be thrown on waste waters, it only requires exposure.

Finally this creates a very dangerous situation as I explained…
 

dansyr

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Agree with all that's been said here about overuse of antibiotics. One thing I think hasn't been touched on yet is that the concern isn't so much having high concentrations of cipro at it's endpoint (drains, sewage, the ocean, whatever). But more so that every time you dose "needlessly", you roll the dice that you select for any cipro-resistant bacteria that might be there. And then after giving you release this out into the world, after giving it a boost by weeding out cipro-resistant competitors.

This is why yes, ag people have traditionally been the ones to blame here, as they dose the most in both amount and frequency, this is essentially the most dice rolls. BUT, even if us hobbyists aren't rolling the most dice, we're still rolling the dice, and that's the concern we should have IMO (are we rolling the dice for a valid reason as OP pointed out, or is it needless). Because the comparison of responsibility isn't strictly concentration, but the number of treatment events.
 

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I think this is one of the reasons meds for fish is no longer readily available in canada… because of misuse and overuse … then it all gets dumped down our drains …. And where does it endup… yep we all know…. It wont take a lot to just run some carbon in what ever QT system we use before dumping the water. Its a shame we have to be told this.
In Canada fish got lumped in with the (primary) livestock concerns, so it was death by cow for the aquarium hobby.
 

bushdoc

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For antibiotics to be effective, you need therapeutic concentration and prolonged exposure. In human medicine prophylactic use of antibiotics is restricted to specific indications only( for example certain types of invasive surgeries, especially when foreign material is implanted to the body).Topical antibiotics are used, but in a form of ointments, when there is prolonged exposure. Simply dipping fish or coral frags in antibiotics is unlikely eradicate harmful bacteria, but it may cause resurgence of antibiotic resistant pathogens. Has your doctor ever told you that you should finish the course of the antibiotics and do not stop it after a day or two? There is plenty of antiseptic solutions, which one can use to treat or prevent infections if your fish has got a wound or scratch. Antibiotics work the best administered internally.
I base my opinion on knowledge acquired at medical school and cemented through years of practice and reading professional literature.
 

livinlifeinBKK

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Actually that was a no with the explanation.

It is not a question of avoiding a little harm while others do a big one.

IMHO it is a very serious risk.
Now I'm confused because i thought you were against the use of Cipro in the hobby...i think it is a serious risk but now it sounds almost as if you are now saying a little bit is ok? Dumping toxins into a river is a very serious risk as well. Are you belittling that??
 
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Now I'm confused because i thought you were against the use of Cipro in the hobby...i think it is a serious risk but now it sounds almost as if you are now saying a little bit is ok? Dumping toxins into a river is a very serious risk as well. Are you belittling that??
I’m all confused here… sorry too many questions.

I’m not entirely against cipro or other antibiotics for specific cases in hospital tanks. The antibiotic is near inactive when the treatment is finished.

I’m entirely against DIPS with Cipro and Amoxicillin because the substance use is frequent, by many people, and goes fresh and entirely active down the drain. And also because these 2 antibiotics are too important for human care and resistance may cause serious problems.

These things you’ve said things are both detrimental. None is good to me. But the one I’m alerting is alarming and should be warned specifically.
 

olonmv

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Doesn't the guy pouring the glass full of toxins contribute to the degradation of the environment in that case as well? Is it ok for him to do it since someone else is worse? Are people who rob gas stations less guilty of a crime than those who launder millions and therefore should go unpunished? I think everyone who contributes bears a responsibility even though someone else might be "worse"...just my opinion though
The way I see it……a river has a way better chance at biologically removing said full glass of water vs the hundreds of gallons being poured in. In no way am I saying that it’s ok to dump toxins in rivers but scolding the individual(s) throwing a glass of toxins in and not putting blame where blame really belongs is futile in the fight to stop river pollution. We, and I’m including myself in this, play an almost insignificant roll in changing the biome of the world vs companies that use and apparently discard tons of the stuff.

In case you haven’t noticed, the guy robbing the store always gets the raw end of the deal when the guy who laundered millions usually gets a cushy sentence.
 

olonmv

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Non-hobbists and companies are not just dumping one of the best antibiotics down the drain where the specific bacteria we need to treat often lives. We are inventing a dangerous thing. That’s what I’m trying to alert.

And just to be clear, my post is not about specific treatments. It is about DIPs…
I’m with you but your voice is better heard with a coalition of doctors who address the problem. I just have a hard time believing that we as hobbyists can make a dent big enough to notice compared to the ones actually cause harm like the companies who dump on the daily.
 

MohH

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Just a general statement…. But usually things that have a negative impact on the environment usually starts small(dont need to go into that)… i guess the concern is that the use of antibiotics and other chemicals will become more and more widely used…. I guess not only in the aquarium industry but also in applications that rear fish for food( and i dont know what or whom oversees that industry) ….
 

livinlifeinBKK

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The way I see it……a river has a way better chance at biologically removing said full glass of water vs the hundreds of gallons being poured in. In no way am I saying that it’s ok to dump toxins in rivers but scolding the individual(s) throwing a glass of toxins in and not putting blame where blame really belongs is futile in the fight to stop river pollution. We, and I’m including myself in this, play an almost insignificant roll in changing the biome of the world vs companies that use and apparently discard tons of the stuff.

In case you haven’t noticed, the guy robbing the store always gets the raw end of the deal when the guy who laundered millions usually gets a cushy sentence.
I'd rather accomplish something by discouraging the guy dumping oil or whatever into the river whether or not he's the primary cause because at least there would be some progress made in the reduction of pollution vs none at all.
 

olonmv

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I'd rather accomplish something by discouraging the guy dumping oil or whatever into the river whether or not he's the primary cause because at least there would be some progress made in the reduction of pollution vs none at all.
I guess my point is. How does it benefit the river by stopping the dude with a glass full of oil when practically nothing is being done about the company with barrel fulls? Same goes here. I get a that a little can be detrimental but, how is up to us to help stop it, when the company up the street isn’t being regulated to do so?
 

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I guess my point is. How does it benefit the river by stopping the dude with a glass full of oil when practically nothing is being done about the company with barrel fulls? Same goes here. I get a that a little can be detrimental but, how is up to us to help stop it, when the company up the street isn’t being regulated to do so?
Pouring antibiotics down your drain means you, specifically, are risking creating antibiotic-resistant bacteria in your household. Bacteria that can make you sick, or your neighbors. It's not really comparable to the glass-of-oil metaphor, assuming you aren't pouring the antibiotics down the same drain that someone else is dumping loads down.

Plus, human risks and medication shortages aside, you don't want antibiotic-resistant bacteria in your reef tank.
 

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