Poll: Alkalinity Monitoring Options

[sneub]

And as to why does it matter if a company has experience in the hobby - because it gives them important context. I would never buy the first fishing rod made by a company where the key executives don't fish. I personally believe it's relevant. That's just my opinion.

Kessil, parent company DiCon Fiberoptics make great LEDs for this hobby and they aren't an aquarium company or have a great length of experience in this hobby. Same with Hanna to name a few.

 

[Terence]

Kessil is a huge company and they are largely successful in the marine aquarium space because of one person - who is an avid hobbyist - my good friend David Lowry.

Hanna is a perfect example to prove my point. Their not being in the hobby allows them to be so out of touch as to not know how to deliver a calcium test for seawater that works, nor how to even work with us marine hobby customers. Now they have a new version of the same test - given with a micrometer that they should have always provided, and left all the previous customers of the kit out in the cold.

I think what I was trying to get across is pretty universal. Especially for hobby serving companies.

 

[Dana Riddle]

Thanks it was a great talk! And a great answer @Dana Riddle

Is there any data out there that shows the degree to which alkalinity varies over the course of a day in various reef conditions? For example the tide pool in your experiment? As compared to a deeper reef area? There have been a couple papers suggesting that coral grow better with a diurnal variation in pH - as compared to maintaining pH constant. Any data on this with regards to coral growth and alkalinity variation?

The questions ive always had about PAR meters are:

1. Is it 'better' to gradually increasae 'PAR' over the course of the day with some overshoot at the peak perhaps (similar to the sun in your experiment where by 100-150 PAR photosynthesis leveled off and then declined some), or is it better to have a rapid rise to the 'lower light level (adequate PAR) which is then constant for a longer period (in your opinion)?

2. How do you know (besides trial and error) which range of PAR is best for a specific Coral species (i..e is there a list somewhere) or is it more 'SPS = x-y', 'LPS lower', etc.

PS - I thought your comments on flow in the experiment were very interesting. Were you suggesting that most tanks do not have enough flow - and that increasing flow will allow better light tolerance even with higher alkalinity?

Thansk. (Mod people feel free to move this somehow to another place - dont want to jack the thread - but I was trying to relate PAR to Alkalinity testing)

There is a paper in the Coral Reefs journal I received yesterday concerning inorganic carbon. I'll comment after digesting the article.

 

[Velcro]

Kessil is a huge company and they are largely successful in the marine aquarium space because of one person - who is an avid hobbyist - my good friend David Lowry.

Hanna is a perfect example to prove my point. Their not being in the hobby allows them to be so out of touch as to not know how to deliver a calcium test for seawater that works, nor how to even work with us marine hobby customers. Now they have a new version of the same test - given with a micrometer that they should have always provided, and left all the previous customers of the kit out in the cold.

I think what I was trying to get across is pretty universal. Especially for hobby serving companies.

Their calcium test is no worse than this abysmal conductivity module that my apex gold has.

 

[MnFish1]

There is a paper in the Coral Reefs journal I received yesterday concerning inorganic carbon. I'll comment after digesting the article.

Thank its interesting the discussion

 

[Dana Riddle]

Here's the gist of the recent Coral Reefs paper. Maintaining a pH of 8.2 produced growth rates in Acropora formosa that were not statistically different from those seen in a daily range of 7.8 to 8.2. However, growth was significantly reduced when pH was maintained at 8.0.

 

[Velcro]

Here's the gist of the recent Coral Reefs paper. Maintaining a pH of 8.2 produced growth rates in Acropora formosa that were not statistically different from those seen
in a daily range of 7.8 to 8.2. However, growth was significantly reduced when pH was maintained at 8.0.

So, basically hit 8.2 at some point during the day and you're good regardless of going under?

 

[MnFish1]

Here's the gist of the recent Coral Reefs paper. Maintaining a pH of 8.2 produced growth rates in Acropora formosa that were not statistically different from those seen in a daily range of 7.8 to 8.2. However, growth was significantly reduced when pH was maintained at 8.0.

Thanks - This is similar or is one of the articles I was referring to @Randy Holmes-Farley. It is interesting to decide do we want to shoot for diurnal variation or completely stability.

 

[Dana Riddle]

So, basically hit 8.2 at some point during the day and you're good regardless of going under?

Looks like the pH was above 8.1 for about 7 hours (1 to 8 p.m.)

 

[MnFish1]

So, basically hit 8.2 at some point during the day and you're good regardless of going under?

So no clear benefit to maintaining ph at a stable level as a ‘goal’. And if that level is maintained at 8 it is detrimental.

 

[Velcro]

So no clear benefit to maintaining ph at a stable level as a ‘goal’. And if that level is maintained at 8 it is detrimental.

only detrimental compared to hitting 8.2 at some point during the day.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So no clear benefit to maintaining ph at a stable level as a ‘goal’. And if that level is maintained at 8 it is detrimental.

I think that are a host of variables unknown, not the least of which is species variability in response, lack of tests at multiple pH values, how alkalinity and other nutrient available plays a role, etc.

That said, I've never been of the opinion that stable pH was either needed or desirable.

 

[MnFish1]

I think that are a host of variables unknown, not the least of which is species variability in response, lack of tests at multiple pH values, how alkalinity and other nutrient available plays a role, etc.

That said, I've never been of the opinion that stable pH was either needed or desirable.

Thanks - but interesting

 

[MnFish1]

only detrimental compared to hitting 8.2 at some point during the day.

Yes - the discussion was whether there was any data out there suggesting that it would be beneficial to keeping pH steady (i.e. with an ALK monitor) for example dosing more ALK overnight to maintain tight control vs not attempting to keep pH stable (at any level) except within the range commonly recommended - and allowing normal diurnal variation of pH.

 

[Tristren]

There is a whole lot of valuable information in this thread. The latter part makes me think that aside from anything else, there is still a lot that we don't know and adding a wide base of information from these and future monitoring systems may provide some unexpected insights.

Aside from anything else though, this being the internet, I think that we can all agree that this:

(... the other device... )
- Does not measure: Mg, Phosphate, Nitrate

is a guarantee from Terence that the Trident is eventually going to measure phosphate and nitrate levels. So we've got that to look forward to... which is nice.



Tony

 

[Kyl]

Kessil is a huge company and they are largely successful in the marine aquarium space because of one person - who is an avid hobbyist - my good friend David Lowry.

@Terence Could you ask Mr. Lowry what the heck they're doing with the AP700, which seems to be in EOL mode at this point? Still no external connectivity, app is barely above Jebao quality and there's been no updates that anything is being worked on for half a year. I'd even settle for basic 0-10v control at this point.

 

[dricc]

Totally agree.The day it's released I'm going to jump into my flying car and be the first one at the store to pick one up.

LOL

 

[mitch91175]

Nope, that is exactly what I am talking about. Customers should expect all manufacturers to give their precision numbers. NOTE: Not all in the list at the top of this thread have done so. Also, customers should assume that those numbers (including ours) are given based on using the product exactly as designed and recommended (which for some is quite complex) and also are going to be when everything is going your way. So, that is why I say that any company that can give you +/- 0.05 is going to be something that matters as a precision of +/- 0.15 would likely end up as 0.3 in a consumers hands.

I agree that all manufacturers should list what their system will measure accuracy and/or precision wise. At the end of the day, unless we are talking about lab grade stuff here, what does it matter if the measures are off 0.15? I know we want accuracy and precision and all that, but what really matters is that the number are as close as possible to the true levels in our tanks. Would I buy a unit that is consistently +/- 0.5, no I would not. But +/- 0.05-0.10 is fine. If you are running too low or too high on you measures you are asking for problems to begin with. To me at least, it all about seeing trends and knowing how my aquarium is consuming ALK. As others have mentioned, yes MAG and CAL are great to know, but really measuring MAG daily is a waste of money and resources. I can see getting CAL reading daily as being beneficial, but not MAG. Just my 0.02.

At this point there is not much a consumer could do to throw our system off except possibly not calibrating it correctly. By taking out the need to use a pH probe or other sensor in the water, a lot of that variability goes away. Also, our reagents will be pre-mixed. I know that was not the case with at least one of the devices above at some point - so there is variability there as well. One other advantage with the Trident that is not immediately obvious is that we have just one peristaltic pump. As it wears, its change is proportional on all actions - pulling water, adding reagent, etc. so the effect is not nearly the issue as if you had three pumps and they possibly wear at different rates.

Wow dude you are way too confident (which I understand that you work for the company and have a vested interest). I can tell you that if the aquabus coding is the same for the Trident as it is for everything else, your own code can throw off your unit. Here are some things mentioned in your community forum that will definitely do it:

https://forum.neptunesystems.com/showthread.php?21748-Module-getting-new-address
https://forum.neptunesystems.com/showthread.php?21979-HELP-ALL-EB8-and-832-and-modules-flashing

These are 2 examples that will not only MESS with your Trident, but take down the entire system. I speak from experience on this as well. I had a bad PM1 that completely stopped everything from working with my Apex. Am I concerned that one day I will have a tank meltdown because of something like this occurring, ABSOLUTELY. Does that make me not want to see what is going on with my aquarium when I am away, no it doesn't.

Smart people know that with technology, stuffs gonna happen, but trying to pull the sheet over our eyes doesn't work for that group of individuals. Yes you guys have some great products, there is no denying that.

Regarding your reagents being pre-mixed, ok how does that necessarily prevent anything. As someone else has mentioned, companies experience batch issues so I'd honestly rather have a good batch of concentrated reagent that I can mix myself. Anybody with a brain can mix reagent. I could even teach my 5 year old to do it. That's why they invented a device called a scale right?

Speaking from firsthand experience, I like that the Alkatronic that I have allows me to buy a concentrated reagent and mix it myself. I don't have to worry about not having reagent on hand anytime.



So when it is all said and done, yes your unit will sell because of your name. But I do have to say that the experience that I am having with my Alkatronic has been up/down but mostly UP these days. The unit works as advertised and if I had to make that decision again, I would definitely purchase it again. At one point I was considering purchase the Trident, but you honestly have me thinking otherwise from some of your comments above. For instance, trying to tell us that 1 pump is better that 3 pumps, REALLY, are you trying to convince yourself of that. When that one pump dies, we then have a useless device that has to be shipped in to be tested in order to get a replacement. The question I have is that if someone contacts your support and they PLAINLY see that a particular module is corrupt, etc. why not just offer them a discount on a replacement module than ship it back, etc?

@JonasRoman , you have been ABSOLUTELY great in your responses to any and all questions and you guys are on your way to running a top-notch organization. I will purchase a Dosetronic once it is released because I like the fact that it will have more than 2 heads (something that DEFINITELY has kept me from buying a Neptune DOS). I also like the fact that you guys are present on this forum daily and here to answer any question regardless of how stupid it may be at times (guilty as charged). I personally encourage others to support these guys as well and not be so caught up in the Neptune universe that it blinds you of other great products on the market.

Think of it this way, if you invest your money will it all be in one stock? (I'd hope not). My point is, yes Neptune Systems makes some great products, but they aren't the end all be all. They now have some stiff competition and that is best for everyone.

 

[mitch91175]

@Terence, a question about the battery backup, why is it that you cannot replace the battery inside of it (I know the answer, but just thought I'd ask a stupid question). Batteries can be purchased anywhere, but that shows me that you guys have moved away from being hobbyist to a corporation (which is understandable, but still).

I should be able to take apart the battery backup and replace the battery and not have to buy an entire new unit.

 

[joe berkman]

Great thread. I've been using my fuge light to try and stabilize my ph and was getting pretty close, guess I'll stop that. Thanx. Has any body heard any thing about seneye introducing an alk monitor?