Possible Brook, medication advice needed

[Reeficheep]

Hi all,

Unfortunately, this post is going to be lacking quite a bit of information for the moment as I cannot collect it right now (at work). Apologies in advance for this as well as lack of knowledge on this subject and the long post.

TLDR- one clownfish has symptoms of early brook (small patch of paleness, heavy breathy and lethargy), other clown is fine. Looking for suggestions for medications available in Australia and advice on what to do.

#fishmedic
Tank- evo 13.5. Cycled with live rock and ammonia, now 2 months old. Reef (has soft corals and a duncan).
Inhabitants- 2 peppermint shrimp, hitchhiker snails, 1 trochus snail, 1 Strombus snail, 2 tank-bred clownfish (added ~2 weeks ago). I'll call the clownfish Emo (black and white, asymptomatic) and Nemo (orange and white, sick) in this post to help differentiate them.

Last test (about 3 days ago), tested with Salifert:
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate ~10
1.025 sg (water changes from natural seawater bought from lfs, tested with Hanna pen)

Onto symptoms-
Inverts are showing no symptoms. Nothing lost so far to the mystery illness.
When bought, the two clownfish were not quarantined (mistake no. 1).
Whilst I assume they are still both males, Nemo is much smaller (assumed destined to be the male of the pair). He has always been relatively thin, doesn't each much food, and always hangs out in the front left corner (where they have both decided to host). Also swims sideways, occasionally upside down, and up and down the corner. Put it down as normal clownfish behaviour (mistake no. 2).

Mistake no. three- not posting earlier.

After the last water change three days ago (other inhabitants didn't seem to care at all), I noticed a paleness around the back of its head like the early signs of brook- very faint, but definitely there. I panicked, did a 5-min fw dip as instructed on the Humblefish thread, and returned him to tank. He sat at the bottom in the corner for a bit, and then was the most animated I've ever seen him, going around the tank with Emo (the black and white clown), the paleness gone.
Yesterday, Nemo returned to the corner and back to his old behaviour, and refused food. I also observed him doing a stringy white poop (parasites?), which I hadn't seen before. This morning the paleness has returned, he refused food, and was floating at the top (sideways or upside down) most of the time I was watching. Also observed very heavy breathing (didn't counts how many gills beats per minute, unfortunantly).

I'm assuming this is brook or another pretty serious issue, but I have a few questions:
1. Why didn't it show up immediately after purchase? I assume the water change caused some stress, but the pale patches showed up only a few minutes after, and Emo wasn't affected at all. Can brook be controlled by stress (which I assume compromises the immune system)?

2. Recommendations for treatments? Ruby rally pro and Metro aren't available anywhere near me (or even in Australia, looks like), and the only strong (37% concentration) formalin I can find is lab grade (e.g. https://auschemsource.com.au/all/formaldehyde/), not Quick Cure or similar products. I also need to source a qt tank.

3. What to do with Emo? No symptoms of brook, always active, absolute greedy guts, no signs of stringy poop. I know if brook's in the tank I should treat both in a QT tank, especially if the tank will go fallow for 6 weeks afterward. The only illness I've seen is a protruding white bump (on its side) that hasn't shrunk or grown since I've bought it (I suspect lympho and am hoping it'll clear up soon).

I'll try and get photos and a video once I get home.

I don't think Nemo will recover without quick intervention at this point (not eating at all and lying upside down seem like sure signs), however I would still really appreciate advice.

Thanks a bunch.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Hi all,

Unfortunately, this post is going to be lacking quite a bit of information for the moment as I cannot collect it right now (at work). Apologies in advance for this as well as lack of knowledge on this subject and the long post.

TLDR- one clownfish has symptoms of early brook (small patch of paleness, heavy breathy and lethargy), other clown is fine. Looking for suggestions for medications available in Australia and advice on what to do.

#fishmedic
Tank- evo 13.5. Cycled with live rock and ammonia, now 2 months old. Reef (has soft corals and a duncan).
Inhabitants- 2 peppermint shrimp, hitchhiker snails, 1 trochus snail, 1 Strombus snail, 2 tank-bred clownfish (added ~2 weeks ago). I'll call the clownfish Emo (black and white, asymptomatic) and Nemo (orange and white, sick) in this post to help differentiate them.

Last test (about 3 days ago), tested with Salifert:
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate ~10
1.025 sg (water changes from natural seawater bought from lfs, tested with Hanna pen)

Onto symptoms-
Inverts are showing no symptoms. Nothing lost so far to the mystery illness.
When bought, the two clownfish were not quarantined (mistake no. 1).
Whilst I assume they are still both males, Nemo is much smaller (assumed destined to be the male of the pair). He has always been relatively thin, doesn't each much food, and always hangs out in the front left corner (where they have both decided to host). Also swims sideways, occasionally upside down, and up and down the corner. Put it down as normal clownfish behaviour (mistake no. 2).

Mistake no. three- not posting earlier.

After the last water change three days ago (other inhabitants didn't seem to care at all), I noticed a paleness around the back of its head like the early signs of brook- very faint, but definitely there. I panicked, did a 5-min fw dip as instructed on the Humblefish thread, and returned him to tank. He sat at the bottom in the corner for a bit, and then was the most animated I've ever seen him, going around the tank with Emo (the black and white clown), the paleness gone.
Yesterday, Nemo returned to the corner and back to his old behaviour, and refused food. I also observed him doing a stringy white poop (parasites?), which I hadn't seen before. This morning the paleness has returned, he refused food, and was floating at the top (sideways or upside down) most of the time I was watching. Also observed very heavy breathing (didn't counts how many gills beats per minute, unfortunantly).

I'm assuming this is brook or another pretty serious issue, but I have a few questions:
1. Why didn't it show up immediately after purchase? I assume the water change caused some stress, but the pale patches showed up only a few minutes after, and Emo wasn't affected at all. Can brook be controlled by stress (which I assume compromises the immune system)?

2. Recommendations for treatments? Ruby rally pro and Metro aren't available anywhere near me (or even in Australia, looks like), and the only strong (37% concentration) formalin I can find is lab grade (e.g. https://auschemsource.com.au/all/formaldehyde/), not Quick Cure or similar products. I also need to source a qt tank.

3. What to do with Emo? No symptoms of brook, always active, absolute greedy guts, no signs of stringy poop. I know if brook's in the tank I should treat both in a QT tank, especially if the tank will go fallow for 6 weeks afterward. The only illness I've seen is a protruding white bump (on its side) that hasn't shrunk or grown since I've bought it (I suspect lympho and am hoping it'll clear up soon).

I'll try and get photos and a video once I get home.

I don't think Nemo will recover without quick intervention at this point (not eating at all and lying upside down seem like sure signs), however I would still really appreciate advice.

Thanks a bunch.

1. Why didn't it show up immediately after purchase? I assume the water change caused some stress, but the pale patches showed up only a few minutes after, and Emo wasn't affected at all. Can brook be controlled by stress (which I assume compromises the immune system)?
Brook which is hostillis is progressive and often caused by stress, poor water quality and exposure

2. Recommendations for treatments? Ruby rally pro and Metro aren't available anywhere near me (or even in Australia, looks like), and the only strong (37% concentration) formalin I can find is lab grade (e.g. https://auschemsource.com.au/all/formaldehyde/), not Quick Cure or similar products. I also need to source a qt tank. Formaldehyde has risks to both exposure and handling, and while it will work, in your country, you can use Aquasonic formalin or ruby rally pro through australia desertcart

3. What to do with Emo? No symptoms of brook, always active, absolute greedy guts, no signs of stringy poop. I know if brook's in the tank I should treat both in a QT tank, especially if the tank will go fallow for 6 weeks afterward. The only illness I've seen is a protruding white bump (on its side) that hasn't shrunk or grown since I've bought it (I suspect lympho and am hoping it'll clear up soon).
If you can get ruby rally pro, treat both within tank or formalin for both in separate tank and add an airstone during use. A 5 minute freshwater dip can offer temporary relief while you wait for medication to arrive

 

[Reeficheep]

Thanks so much for the quick reply!

1. Ruby Rally is out of stock on Australia Desertcart, HOWEVER is this (attached image) the formalin product you suggested? One of my lfs has it. I assume the Malachite green will affect the dosage... does it also come with the same risks as formaldehyde due to the active ingredients?

2. I've heard freshwater dips should be spaced at least 48 hours apart. Is this accurate? If not, I can do another tonight.

'treat both within tank or formalin for both in separate tank and add an airstone during use.'

3. Just clarifying, does this mean to dose in a QT tank or prepare a separate bath and then transfer to QT tank? (I assume formalin and Malachite Green shouldn't be added into the DT).

Again, I really appreciate the help.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thanks so much for the quick reply!

1. Ruby Rally is out of stock on Australia Desertcart, HOWEVER is this (attached image) the formalin product you suggested? One of my lfs has it. I assume the Malachite green will affect the dosage... does it also come with the same risks as formaldehyde due to the active ingredients?

2. I've heard freshwater dips should be spaced at least 48 hours apart. Is this accurate? If not, I can do another tonight.


3. Just clarifying, does this mean to dose in a QT tank or prepare a separate bath and then transfer to QT tank? (I assume formalin and Malachite Green shouldn't be added into the DT).

Again, I really appreciate the help.

Formalin / malachite green remedies just don’t work well for marine fish diseases. The formalin level is often too low to control brooklynella .

Can you post a video of both clowns?

 

[Reeficheep]

So sorry- was certain I posted this last night, but clearly not! (Guess it gives me a chance to update for this morning as well).

Yesterday- the clown is swimming again more than normal (similar to after the freshwater dip). The pale patches are less prominent, and its now more like a very thin white film in some areas (nowhere near the white coating I've seen in most cases of brook), and it's like the skin along its sides has been pitted a bit (hard to explain, like lots of tiny dents it it's side). Still not eating. The larger clown is also displaying some chasing behaviours- I'm not sure if this is normal transitioning to female, or if it's sensing sickness and picking on the weaker fish. (All pics from last night).

This morning- Larger black and white clown still showing dominant behaviour, but all white has faded from the smaller clown and it's back to normal behaviours (hosting corner, occasional swimming around). However, it's still not eating. It seems like it's immune system has recovered enough to hide the parasite. Black and white clown still shows no symptoms. I did get a video this morning, but am having trouble attaching it (even on Youtube, I'm not the most techy person)- it should be up by some time this afternoon.

If you wouldn't recommend that medication (@vetteguy53081 I'm assuming that's not the one you meant), do you have any others in mind? I'm still thinking I should treat them, but with so many meds not available I'm just not sure how.

Thanks again for the replies and your expertise.

 

[vetteguy53081]

So sorry- was certain I posted this last night, but clearly not! (Guess it gives me a chance to update for this morning as well).

Yesterday- the clown is swimming again more than normal (similar to after the freshwater dip). The pale patches are less prominent, and its now more like a very thin white film in some areas (nowhere near the white coating I've seen in most cases of brook), and it's like the skin along its sides has been pitted a bit (hard to explain, like lots of tiny dents it it's side). Still not eating. The larger clown is also displaying some chasing behaviours- I'm not sure if this is normal transitioning to female, or if it's sensing sickness and picking on the weaker fish. (All pics from last night).

This morning- Larger black and white clown still showing dominant behaviour, but all white has faded from the smaller clown and it's back to normal behaviours (hosting corner, occasional swimming around). However, it's still not eating. It seems like it's immune system has recovered enough to hide the parasite. Black and white clown still shows no symptoms. I did get a video this morning, but am having trouble attaching it (even on Youtube, I'm not the most techy person)- it should be up by some time this afternoon.

If you wouldn't recommend that medication (@vetteguy53081 I'm assuming that's not the one you meant), do you have any others in mind? I'm still thinking I should treat them, but with so many meds not available I'm just not sure how.

Thanks again for the replies and your expertise.

brook symptoms are generally on a roller coaster. You wont see it today and then see it again tomorrow, but if you want to safeguard the fish, yes Ruby Rally Pro is safe to use and safe with inverts and coral and effective with brook and due to unavailability, Aquasonic formalin is next best bet. NT Labs acriflavine also good if available

 

[Reeficheep]

Alright #fishmedic (sorry for the further delay, life got busy again).

I was just given a qt setup by a friend that didn't need the tank anymore (~10 gal with filter, heater and light), so I may finally be able to properly hospitalise this fish. The fish in question has been eating little and acting better or worse depending on the day, same symptoms as previously posted. Other fish has been acting fine and still eating like a pig; however if I treat the orange clownfish I'll put him in qt as will so the tank can fallow for 4-6 weeks.

Regarding Aquasonic formalin (I cant find NT Labs acriflavine), what dosage rate would you recommend for saltwater fish, and should it be used as a bath or added in a lower level directly to the QT tank? A few shops near me sell it, so I can pick it up easily when needed. Would you suggest any other medications? I plan to freshwater dip the infected clown before introducing to the qt tank just to give it some relief and lower the number of parasites introduced into the clean system.

Thank you!

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Alright #fishmedic (sorry for the further delay, life got busy again).

I was just given a qt setup by a friend that didn't need the tank anymore (~10 gal with filter, heater and light), so I may finally be able to properly hospitalise this fish. The fish in question has been eating little and acting better or worse depending on the day, same symptoms as previously posted. Other fish has been acting fine and still eating like a pig; however if I treat the orange clownfish I'll put him in qt as will so the tank can fallow for 4-6 weeks.

Regarding Aquasonic formalin (I cant find NT Labs acriflavine), what dosage rate would you recommend for saltwater fish, and should it be used as a bath or added in a lower level directly to the QT tank? A few shops near me sell it, so I can pick it up easily when needed. Would you suggest any other medications? I plan to freshwater dip the infected clown before introducing to the qt tank just to give it some relief and lower the number of parasites introduced into the clean system.

Thank you!

Formalin, as a bath, is dosed with good aeration, at a rate of 25 ppm. That is the dose for full strength formalin (which is 37% formaldehyde gas in water). I think the Aquasonic product is just a formalin/malachite green product. That doesn't work well in marine systems, it is really only useful in some instances for treating freshwater fish.

 

[Reeficheep]

Thanks for the reply, but looks like it's too late anyways...

After catching (not a hassle, I turned the lights of beforehand so they were both asleep) and fw dipping the orange and white, I transferred him into the qt tank. Didn't last 5 hours before he passed (I didn't dose any meds into the tank).

Not sure if it was human errors or the added stress of the dip after so many weeks of sickness/no to little eating, but definitely a shame and my first saltwater death.

Now not sure what to do with the black and white... s/he seems fine as normal, still eating and showing no symptoms (the lympho like spot seems to be shrinking), but I know there's definitely something in the tank. Should I take them out and put in qt, letting the tank go fallow? Leave them in there and observe to see if anything changes? I defineately know I'm not putting in asecond clown anytime soon, so happy to wait.

Thanks again for all the info :)