Pro Reef salt from Turkey

[IKD]

I understand your point.

Someone worried about bottom line can buy Instant Ocean for 65 and dose.
Why would they buy TM for 100 or 110

Only because it mixes clear, leaves no residue and has nsf water parameters.

You agree with me till here?

Now let's say price of raw materials, labor cost etc rise where TM cannot produce salt that lives up to their original promise.
TM can either raise the price or cut cost to keep price same.
You arguing someone's that choose an expensive salt to begin with will be happy about same price and cutting cost in production.

Or will they happily pay extra. There is no argument.
Yes they will complain online on r2r but will still use it. Because it would still be best in market upholding its original promise.

When you say bottom line, TM is not for business, entities worried about bottom line.
We have other salt manufacturers for that.
Just trying to make forum members understand why there are few people mad. I am not trying to argue or be rude.
But you can't deny that you don't see the other side argument.
I don't use TM. Bought a bucket because of recommendation but never opened it.

It's nice that we can have a civil discussion on this topic. I do agree with several of your points.

"When you say bottom line, TM is not for business, entities worried about bottom line."
This is where I disagree. For TM to assume they can set whatever price they want and not risk losing customers would be a marketing mistake. To say there are businesses hobbyists out there that do not care about their expenses is not something I agree with. I'm not too intimate on saltwater companies, but I do not know of any that are so flush with cash they don't care what the price is for a consumable like salt. That doesn't make business sense, and I hope you would generally agree.

There is one other point worth mentioning. The underlying assumption on opening a Turkey facility was that the quality would not change. There was no intent to reduce quality or materials whether it was done for increasing volume or mitigating cost reasons. So for TM to consider staying only in Germany implies they believed there was a risk of quality reduction in the Turkey facility, which they clearly didn't based on their previously replies. I agree with you that there are people that will pay extra to ensure they get the same quality product, but this new facility was likely intended to be invisible to their customers.

 

[rmcrom]

I mixed up some TM PR this weekend and it was fizzing a little with small bubbles rising to the top and popping. Anyone else have that happen? And the alk was only 6.5dkh when mixed.

 

[Duffer]

I mixed up some TM PR this weekend and it was fizzing a little with small bubbles rising to the top and popping. Anyone else have that happen? And the alk was only 6.5dkh when mixed.

Not to sure on the fizzing, but I have seen that with other salts…the alk at 6.5 does not concern me as I have had that with tmp from Germany, I just dose the new salt mix to bring it up to tank para meters so there is no swing…never a problem

 

[ssdawood]

It's nice that we can have a civil discussion on this topic. I do agree with several of your points.

"When you say bottom line, TM is not for business, entities worried about bottom line."
This is where I disagree. For TM to assume they can set whatever price they want and not risk losing customers would be a marketing mistake. To say there are businesses hobbyists out there that do not care about their expenses is not something I agree with. I'm not too intimate on saltwater companies, but I do not know of any that are so flush with cash they don't care what the price is for a consumable like salt. That doesn't make business sense, and I hope you would generally agree.

There is one other point worth mentioning. The underlying assumption on opening a Turkey facility was that the quality would not change. There was no intent to reduce quality or materials whether it was done for increasing volume or mitigating cost reasons. So for TM to consider staying only in Germany implies they believed there was a risk of quality reduction in the Turkey facility, which they clearly didn't based on their previously replies. I agree with you that there are people that will pay extra to ensure they get the same quality product, but this new facility was likely intended to be invisible to their customers.

I agree TM didn't know about quality reduction

But I said they should have kept production in Germany and raise price. Ppl would pay.
You said they won't?

I am still saying why don't you see the point that this is a premium salt. Consumers are already paying a premium.
10 or 20 percent increase won't turn them away.
You say yes it would ?
Some of them. Maybe

I am simply saying people would have paid extra if they kept production in Germany.

This was your argument. People won't pay premium for German salt. I argued yes they will. They were already paying a premium for German salt.

 

[ssdawood]

Business, entities that worry about maintaining bottom lines could switch salts.
They could have maintained bottom lines without ever using TM.
You know why they paid extra for TM when Red Sea, IO , Brightwell etc are all cheaper?
Mixes clean, no gunk in containers, nsf parameters and couple decades long reputation of clean raw materials made in Germany when almost everyone moved manufacturing to China.
TM has to maintain that all costs. Even the location. It is part of premium product.
Like Royal Exclusiv.

 

[FishyFishFish]

The trouble is that you are viewing this with hindsight.

If TM had just put the price up by 20% people would have been up in arms. With the knowledge of what has unfolded, paying 20% extra might be a price worth paying.

People had been complaining about lack of stock, and some were jumping ship because they couldn’t get a steady supply. Opening a new production plant may have been the only way to (quickly) increase capacity to fill the demand.

Nobody other than TM knows exactly what the issue was (and maybe even they still don’t know how it occurred). Was it because the plant was in Turkey, or is that entirely irrelevant? Who is to say that a similar thing wouldn’t have happened if they opened a new German facility?

 

[ssdawood]

The trouble is that you are viewing this with hindsight.

If TM had just put the price up by 20% people would have been up in arms. With the knowledge of what has unfolded, paying 20% extra might be a price worth paying.

People had been complaining about lack of stock, and some were jumping ship because they couldn’t get a steady supply. Opening a new production plant may have been the only way to (quickly) increase capacity to fill the demand.

Nobody other than TM knows exactly what the issue was (and maybe even they still don’t know how it occurred). Was it because the plant was in Turkey, or is that entirely irrelevant? Who is to say that a similar thing wouldn’t have happened if they opened a new German facility?

I am not arguing what they should have done

Op argument was ppl won't pay price increase.
My argument was, yes I agree some won't, but many will.
Because there is no salt like TM.
Just look at prices now. See how much premium TM commands already.
Yes salt could be bad in Germany too.

But we are not arguing what TM should do, operate their business.

I was only saying ppl already pay a premium for this salt.
A little extra would not have mattered .
OP position was a little extra price increase would have mattered.
You see?

 

[ssdawood]

I am gonna bow out.
My argument is not coming thru. I am never the person to tell someone how to do their business.

I was discussing price increase only.

 

[FishyFishFish]

Nobody really knows the answer, but this was one thread from the last price increase.

Price increase..Really

@Lou Ekus I just saw on a major retailer/vendor that alot of us here use, a price increase in your salt. They are stating it's MAP increase. This is very disappointing. Not only could you not get the salt for months on end, but now with the salt supposedly becoming more available in short time...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[SWherrey]

Statement on current supply of Tropic Marin® Pro-Reef sea salt from our Turkish production facility.

Tropic Marin stands for the highest quality in seawater animal husbandry. Regrettably, in the last few days we have received several complaints that some of our Tropic Marin® Pro-Reef sea salt, produced in our Turkish facility, did not meet our exacting optical standards. Our investigation into these complaints has revealed that limited batches of Tropic Marin® Pro-Reef sea salt may contain a small amount of an insoluble clay mineral impurity that may impact our exacting optical quality standards, resulting in cloudiness, film and/or yellowish or brownish residue in the water. Importantly, we have no evidence that these insoluble clay minerals, causing the cloudiness, are harmful to the animals. Please note that this notice only applies to Tropic Marin® Pro-Reef sea salt blended in our facility in Turkey and that the mineral impurity has not been observed in Tropic Marin® Pro-Reef sea salt produced in our German facilities or in any of our other products.

In addition to our own investigations, we have commissioned an in-depth analysis from an external laboratory to verify our findings. As a precautionary measure, we have decided to interrupt the production and distribution of Tropic Marin® Pro-Reef salts, blended in our facility in Turkey, until further notice. Again, this is purely a precautionary measure and has no impact on Tropic Marin® Pro-Reef sea salt produced elsewhere.

We deeply regret any inconvenience this has caused.

Your Tropic Marin® team

@Dhaleillama

 

[Shooter6]

Should set up a u.s. plant!

 

[tpirovol]

Anyone had any luck getting it swapped out for a new batch? Mine in Canada being cycled in my tank is from Turkey!

 

[Pod_01]

Should set up a u.s. plant!

Besides the obvious that US is substantial reef market how would that help? If the plant was in US would that mean TM gets a free pass on any quality issues? US is the place where lowest cost, cutting cost, outsource what you can, meet lowest acceptable quality etc… rules the land (90% of the time). Why not Mexico or Canada if it has to be produced in North America? I don’t think I would feel any better if there was an issue and the salt was blended in US vs Turkey.

 

[Shooter6]

Besides the obvious that US is substantial reef market how would that help? If the plant was in US would that mean TM gets a free pass on any quality issues? US is the place where lowest cost, cutting cost, outsource what you can, meet lowest acceptable quality etc… rules the land (90% of the time). Why not Mexico or Canada if it has to be produced in North America? I don’t think I would feel any better if there was an issue and the salt was blended in US vs Turkey.

US has product standards requirements that would be easier to ensure. If tm requirements are curtain quality ingredients, such as food grade, pharmaceutical, ect then the products would be purchased from pharmaceutical companies who have standards that are mandatory. You cannot say the same thing for turkey

 

[Shooter6]

Besides the obvious that US is substantial reef market how would that help? If the plant was in US would that mean TM gets a free pass on any quality issues? US is the place where lowest cost, cutting cost, outsource what you can, meet lowest acceptable quality etc… rules the land (90% of the time). Why not Mexico or Canada if it has to be produced in North America? I don’t think I would feel any better if there was an issue and the salt was blended in US vs Turkey.

Would you feel any better if the salt from the German plant had an issue? That is just a stupid point to try and make. My statement was a US plant due to production standards more likely to be followed dure to regulations. Vs turkey . Same reason that the US pharmaceuticals like the covid vaccine is the gold standard vs other countries vaccine.

 

[Woodyman]

US has product standards requirements that would be easier to ensure. If tm requirements are curtain quality ingredients, such as food grade, pharmaceutical, ect then the products would be purchased from pharmaceutical companies who have standards that are mandatory. You cannot say the same thing for turkey

Buying USP salt from Germany and USP salt from France and USP salt from the US would all be equivalent.

USP grade materials all meet the same standard regardless of production site. That's why there is a USP standard. So whether it is produced in the US, Mexico, Canada, France, or Turkey.

Same for other countries Pharmacopeia standards. To be sold as USP it has to meet the standards.

TM already uses USP raw materials.

Either a raw ingredient was compromised, or the production/packaging line was compromised which is what led to this issue. Hopefully, TM is transparent and puts out a statement once a true root cause is identified.

 

[Woodyman]

Buying USP salt from Germany and USP salt from France and USP salt from the US would all be equivalent.

USP grade materials all meet the same standard regardless of production site. That's why there is a USP standard. So whether it is produced in the US, Mexico, Canada, France, or Turkey.

Same for other countries Pharmacopeia standards. To be sold as USP it has to meet the standards.

TM already uses USP raw materials.

Either a raw ingredient was compromised, or the production/packaging line was compromised which is what led to this issue. Hopefully, TM is transparent and puts out a statement once a true root cause is identified.

To further clarify if a manufacturing plant produced one of the raw materials for TM and it is being sold as USP grade. It has to meet the standards for the USP standard of that material it doesn't matter if that plant is in Japan, Turkey, Gemany, the UK, or the US. They would all have to meet USP standard to be sold as such.

 

[Shooter6]

Buying USP salt from Germany and USP salt from France and USP salt from the US would all be equivalent.

USP grade materials all meet the same standard regardless of production site. That's why there is a USP standard. So whether it is produced in the US, Mexico, Canada, France, or Turkey.

Same for other countries Pharmacopeia standards. To be sold as USP it has to meet the standards.

TM already uses USP raw materials.

Either a raw ingredient was compromised, or the production/packaging line was compromised which is what led to this issue. Hopefully, TM is transparent and puts out a statement once a true root cause is identified.

Having been stationed on turkey back in rhe 90s, my experience is if a manager ect can pocket some cash by making side deals on products, they will. Whether that's switching products for lower quality ones or cutting products and selling off the pure ones.

 

[Woodyman]

Having been stationed on turkey back in rhe 90s, my experience is if a manager ect can pocket some cash by making side deals on products, they will. Whether that's switching products for lower quality ones or cutting products and selling off the pure ones.

Side deals to bypass quality happen all over the world. My point wasn't to argue whether or not production is more or less trustworthy from one country to another. Just that in regards to standards they apply across the board to products sold as USP. Auditors and regulators can always be bought off and encouraged to look the other way. Which is why 3rd party certified and trustworthy auditing companies should always be used if not conducted by the purchaser themselves.

That being the cause of the current issue is a possibility, and hopefully TM will be able to make that determination.

 

[Woodyman]

Any Sodium Chloride being sold as USP grade Sodium Chloride has to meet these standards as outlined by USP.

This is an old screenshot, but you get the idea. It doesn't matter if that Sodium Chloride is produced in the US or anywhere else. It just has to meet these purity standards to be labeled and sold as USP NaCl.

Whole suit of other regulations that the FDA imposes here in the US that don't apply to other countries.