Problems with AI Prime on Nano Tank

[FishyFishFish]

I have been running a Fluval Evo for a while, with softies and a quite a few LPS, with reasonable success using the stock light.

I've had a second Evo running for several months as a grow out tank and had a spare AI Prime 16 HD, so I thought I'd try some SPS. Now I know that the tank has not been running that long and it is only a Nano, so I was always going to find this a struggle, but I have started losing all of the Acros within a couple of weeks. I am working on improving the stability (which generally doesn't seem too bad although I am struggling to keep nitrate up) but my biggest confusion is how best to set up the lighting.

The main question that I have is that the AI prime is causing a lot of shadowing; this isn't from the rocks but from the coral itself. As it is a point light source then unless the coral points directly at the light (which won't happen with branching type corals) then the underside will always be shadowed. Other people seem to be growing SPS using a single AI Prime but I don't understand how. It is obvious that the areas in the shadows aren't doing well.

Is there any way around this? At the moment I can't see any way forward other than supplemental lighting or a different LED with more light pucks (or a second AI Prime).


Also, is there any way to tell if I am using too much or not enough light? I've seen wildly different settings and I can't tell if I am burning the corals with too much light, or not given them enough. Some of the settings that I have downloaded vary wildly. Unfortunately, I don't have a PAR meter.

I think some of my current SPS are beyond help (the 2 Birdsnests and the Montis all seem to be ok) but I'm not ready to give up yet. I do want to try to learn some more before I try adding any more corals though.

 

[Dkmoo]

With acros u really need par meter to dial in the par numbers.

1 ai prime is going to be hard for acros its simply not powerful enough.

I use 3 + 2 reefbrite xho for my 30G. I used to have 2 prime, as you may have seen in my build thread. My acros have started doing well and really taking off after I upgraded to the current lights.

 

[Dkmoo]

Also, acros require wildly more light than monti and birdsnest.

Montis and birdsnest can do well at around 250par. But for acros, the beginner easy ones like green slimer needs 250 MINIMUM. Many acros do better in the 350 - 450 range. Some of the expense/high end ones with crazy colors are really created by blasting them with high light and can only maintain those coloration at 500+ par.

 

[Waynerock]

I disagree about prime’s being underpowered. 1 on a 13 gal should work. I have 3 on a 65 and never had any problems with color or growth. To each his own but I believe you can do it. Here is my proof. Can’t argue with the results! I think we all over-light our tanks. The corals will adapt to too high and too low withinn reason.

 

[Dkmoo]

I disagree about prime’s being underpowered. 1 on a 13 gal should work. I have 3 on a 65 and never had any problems with color or growth. To each his own but I believe you can do it. Here is my proof. Can’t argue with the results! I think we all over-light our tanks. The corals will adapt to too high and too low withinn reason.

There is a very big difference between 1 prime on a 13g and 3 prime on a 65g thats unrelated to the raw power output. Its about the spread.. with 1 prime its really hard to get right. Whereas with 3, even if the raw par is on the low side, you make up for it with much better spread. In other words, even if the par is sufficient with 1 prime at 100%, op will get much more better results with 2 prime at 50% each

Also, it looks like many of your acros have green flouresent protiens, (great looking tank, btw), which have been proven in labs to activate better in lower par intensities. Other color flouresence protiens (red for ex) has a higher rrquired par intensity. Ur tank looks great so im not saying you need to add light and you obviously found success with your current setting. I'm not sure what your current par is at, but if you want to add like homewreckers or strawberry shortcake, or really anything that flouresence certain shades of pink or intense red, having consistently spread out high par at 400+ is gonna give u better coloration.

Here is a perfect example. I bought a frag from a LFS that was a dark brown with a hint of purple that the LFS didn't even know just said it was an "ORA acro" and sold for me for $5. This is what it looked like (I didn't specifically took a pic for this so quality is bad, took an old full tank shot and zoomed in). This is under 250PAR, as you can see, I has some shade of color but also very dull and brown.

This is what is it now. It only started showing its true colors after I upgraded light to 350 -400 Par. Turned out this is a ORA Xmas mirabilis. Under the stronger light, you also seen that the side facing the light has much more red/pink expressions.

Whereas the back side not directly facing the light has more green expressions

Non of the pictures were taken with filters or post edit. Its directly from my phone taken right now.

 

[FishyFishFish]

I understand that low PAR causes SPS to lose their color and go 'brown'. Mine are going white and then losing their tissue. I have no idea if that is because the light is too high (probably not) or due to other issues. I could buy a PAR meter but, considering the cost, I could also use that money to buy a better light instead if that would help.

The BRS video suggests that a single Prime could get up to 350 PAR in a 12 inch cube, and my Acros are only a few inches below the surface. However, I wasn't driving my Prime quite as hard as they suggest as I am worried about the lenses melting.

In the mean time I've actually turned the light down, but now I need to come up with a plan if I want to try again.

 

[Dkmoo]

I understand that low PAR causes SPS to lose their color and go 'brown'. Mine are going white and then losing their tissue. I have no idea if that is because the light is too high (probably not) or due to other issues. I could buy a PAR meter but, considering the cost, I could also use that money to buy a better light instead if that would help.

The BRS video suggests that a single Prime could get up to 350 PAR in a 12 inch cube, and my Acros are only a few inches below the surface. However, I wasn't driving my Prime quite as hard as they suggest as I am worried about the lenses melting.

In the mean time I've actually turned the light down, but now I need to come up with a plan if I want to try again.

If it can get to 350 par then the spread could be the issue as well

Not sure what your budget is, but a seneye isn't that expensive.. in my mind, if it can save 4 mid-tier acro frags from dying from improper light setting. It would have paid for itself. In my mixed reef tank, the seneye isbthe best investment I made. 0 frag loss and the corals I have run the full range of par requirements, from 50par to 500.

EDIT: Or rent one. Check your local LFS if they off that.

 

[Waynerock]

There is a very big difference between 1 prime on a 13g and 3 prime on a 65g thats unrelated to the raw power output. Its about the spread.. with 1 prime its really hard to get right. Whereas with 3, even if the raw par is on the low side, you make up for it with much better spread. In other words, even if the par is sufficient with 1 prime at 100%, op will get much more better results with 2 prime at 50% each

Also, it looks like many of your acros have green flouresent protiens, (great looking tank, btw), which have been proven in labs to activate better in lower par intensities. Other color flouresence protiens (red for ex) has a higher rrquired par intensity. Ur tank looks great so im not saying you need to add light and you obviously found success with your current setting. I'm not sure what your current par is at, but if you want to add like homewreckers or strawberry shortcake, or really anything that flouresence certain shades of pink or intense red, having consistently spread out high par at 400+ is gonna give u better coloration.

Here is a perfect example. I bought a frag from a LFS that was a dark brown with a hint of purple that the LFS didn't even know just said it was an "ORA acro" and sold for me for $5. This is what it looked like (I didn't specifically took a pic for this so quality is bad, took an old full tank shot and zoomed in). This is under 250PAR, as you can see, I has some shade of color but also very dull and brown.

This is what is it now. It only started showing its true colors after I upgraded light to 350 -400 Par. Turned out this is a ORA Xmas mirabilis. Under the stronger light, you also seen that the side facing the light has much more red/pink expressions.

Whereas the back side not directly facing the light has more green expressions

Non of the pictures were taken with filters or post edit. Its directly from my phone taken right now.

Your acro’s look fantastic. I still think it can be done. I was just illustrating how acro’s absolutely can be grown to colony with nice color with low par. When I did test I had 1 spot that was 172 and an inch left or right dropped to around 160 and less. It did take a while to get there ( 2 years). I understand the light crossing and bouncing off the glass did give me almost no shadowing issues and although I did not notice it bumping up par it was a nice blanket. I have no complaints about color and no desire to make them better. As low as my nutrients are I don’t think I could go any higher and when I do try I get almost instant fading of color. I don’t even have these light at HALF output as you can see. RB tops at 85%! I say they go for it and if they are not happy 1 24 inch XHO strip will give them an extra 95-110 par! That’s what is so cool about this hobby. You can have wildly different results. I still feel most corals will adapt given time and look stunning without cooking them. Like you said though it’s apples to oranges with multiple lights but years ago I had nice acro’s with nice color on a bio cube 32 with 1 prime. Light is not the only thing to give SPS amazing color.

 

[chipchipbro]

Your acro’s look fantastic. I still think it can be done. I was just illustrating how acro’s absolutely can be grown to colony with nice color with low par. When I did test I had 1 spot that was 172 and an inch left or right dropped to around 160 and less. It did take a while to get there ( 2 years). I understand the light crossing and bouncing off the glass did give me almost no shadowing issues and although I did not notice it bumping up par it was a nice blanket. I have no complaints about color and no desire to make them better. As low as my nutrients are I don’t think I could go any higher and when I do try I get almost instant fading of color. I don’t even have these light at HALF output as you can see. RB tops at 85%! I say they go for it and if they are not happy 1 24 inch XHO strip will give them an extra 95-110 par! That’s what is so cool about this hobby. You can have wildly different results. I still feel most corals will adapt given time and look stunning without cooking them. Like you said though it’s apples to oranges with multiple lights but years ago I had nice acro’s with nice color on a bio cube 32 with 1 prime. Light is not the only thing to give SPS amazing color.

dont you go higher on intensity with the primes? I mean, you could.

Plus why do you dont just go straight 10hrs with the same schedule?

I dont understand why violet and stuff need to vary in intensity during the day. Could you explain that to me?

 

[Waynerock]

I understand that low PAR causes SPS to lose their color and go 'brown'. Mine are going white and then losing their tissue. I have no idea if that is because the light is too high (probably not) or due to other issues. I could buy a PAR meter but, considering the cost, I could also use that money to buy a better light instead if that would help.

The BRS video suggests that a single Prime could get up to 350 PAR in a 12 inch cube, and my Acros are only a few inches below the surface. However, I wasn't driving my Prime quite as hard as they suggest as I am worried about the lenses melting.

In the mean time I've actually turned the light down, but now I need to come up with a plan if I want to try again.

The only diode that could melt the lens are the “UV” ones. Here is my schedule and I am more than happy to share if you want to try. Remember the holy trinity of great SPS is light, flow, nutrients. I don’t think anyone can agree 100% on what is more important of the 3. I have found that if you master stability good things will happen. My key for stability is All For Reef. 29 ml a day and I can literally guess my numbers when I test weekly. BRS likes a lot more white and every time I try to whiten up my tank the corals get ticked.

 

[chipchipbro]

The only diode that could melt the lens are the “UV” ones. Here is my schedule and I am more than happy to share if you want to try. Remember the holy trinity of great SPS is light, flow, nutrients. I don’t think anyone can agree 100% on what is more important of the 3. I have found that if you master stability good things will happen. My key for stability is All For Reef. 29 ml a day and I can literally guess my numbers when I test weekly. BRS likes a lot more white and every time I try to whiten up my tank the corals get ticked.

i am sorry to jump on this.
You only dose all for reef and thats it?
I was thinking to start balling light.

But if all for reef is enough for s nano with acros to thrive I would go for this 10/10.

 

[Dkmoo]

my Acros are only a few inches below the surface.

sry multiple posts - also just noticed this could be an issue too.

I would recommend against putting anything that close to the surface, even if the measured PAR number seem in range. This is the case for LEDs. PAR measures how much "light" is delivered but it doesn't differentiate "how" its delivered. with LEDs, you can think of each light "ray" as tiny little high energy laser beams blasting the coral. When a frag is that close to the surface, the water has no chance of diffusing it sufficiently and that's what may be cooking your frags - even if the "amount" of light is correct. T5s does not have this issue as its much more diffused. Look into a diffuser if you must keep the frag that high.

Think of it as watering plants with many tiny high pressure nozzles vs 1 gentle "shower" watering can. Even if the amount of water that the plant receive is the same, it's very different which one is better.

 

[Dkmoo]

Your acro’s look fantastic. I still think it can be done. I was just illustrating how acro’s absolutely can be grown to colony with nice color with low par. When I did test I had 1 spot that was 172 and an inch left or right dropped to around 160 and less. It did take a while to get there ( 2 years). I understand the light crossing and bouncing off the glass did give me almost no shadowing issues and although I did not notice it bumping up par it was a nice blanket. I have no complaints about color and no desire to make them better. As low as my nutrients are I don’t think I could go any higher and when I do try I get almost instant fading of color. I don’t even have these light at HALF output as you can see. RB tops at 85%! I say they go for it and if they are not happy 1 24 inch XHO strip will give them an extra 95-110 par! That’s what is so cool about this hobby. You can have wildly different results. I still feel most corals will adapt given time and look stunning without cooking them. Like you said though it’s apples to oranges with multiple lights but years ago I had nice acro’s with nice color on a bio cube 32 with 1 prime. Light is not the only thing to give SPS amazing color.

your corals definite adopted to the lower end of the PAR needs - see those polyp expansions? its making up the lack of energy from photosynthesis by trying to capture more from the water column. Amazing little creatures they are.

Also, i actually think your prime setting currently is running close to "max" in terms of "PUR". This is where i think the companies are doing false advertising by saying how a tiny little puck can achieve XYZ par levels. What they don't tell you is that those high XYZ numbers are running with all channels at 100%, they also don't tell you that many of those channels don't really help corals photosynthesize - it just makes the tank look "prettier". you are already running the useful channels pretty high so if you even want to dial up the par higher for whatever reason, don't dial the whites up! ( i learned that the hard way and got a massive algae outbreak).

 

[tharbin]

I have 1 Prime 16HD on a WB Pen 15 and while it works well (using the David Saxby schedule--my corals did not like the BRS schedule at all) I find that the actual placement of corals is problematic. I have montis doing well but I'm not sure I'd use it with an acro. It is marginally strong enough but the light is just far too directional. The single puck just doesn't cut it. Far to many shadow areas. I have another Prime 16HD and I have considered adding it as well but the tank will look pretty ugly with two Primes over a little 15 gallon. I'm actually considering saving up for a Noopsyche light with two pucks.

 

[Waynerock]

dont you go higher on intensity with the primes? I mean, you could.

Plus why do you dont just go straight 10hrs with the same schedule?

I dont understand why violet and stuff need to vary in intensity during the day. Could you explain that to me?

Yea my schedule is little weird. I tried to have a little stronger mid day lighting. My “sunset” light is all over the place. I did the big NO NO and set to my eyes. I like how it changes so much when I get home from work till it goes dark. Every time I look at the tank from 7 to 11 it is different and I dig it. I would clean it up but I don’t want to mess with a good thing. The pictures of my tank with the big colony’s was reset back in July cause my tank was having silicone issues and Red Sea replaced. I cut and gave away all the SPS and the little tiny encrusted pieces left on the rock are growing back out into great pieces. It’s amazing because I thought I scraped it all off but as you can see they are survivors! What you see now was nothing but 1 or 2 polyps 6 months ago. I honestly was done with acro’s and wanted a more LPS heavy mixed reef. If I was trying to grow the acro’s back out they probably would of never made it. I just left everything alone. None of the acro’s in my tank are super demanding of high light. I love starting with hardly anything and growing stuff out, that is what keeps me going in the hobby. You know what they say if it’s not broke don’t fix it.

 

[Waynerock]

your corals definite adopted to the lower end of the PAR needs - see those polyp expansions? its making up the lack of energy from photosynthesis by trying to capture more from the water column. Amazing little creatures they are.

Also, i actually think your prime setting currently is running close to "max" in terms of "PUR". This is where i think the companies are doing false advertising by saying how a tiny little puck can achieve XYZ par levels. What they don't tell you is that those high XYZ numbers are running with all channels at 100%, they also don't tell you that many of those channels don't really help corals photosynthesize - it just makes the tank look "prettier". you are already running the useful channels pretty high so if you even want to dial up the par higher for whatever reason, don't dial the whites up! ( i learned that the hard way and got a massive algae outbreak).

Yea they get those numbers by cranking up the whites. Nothing would survive under that much white

 

[chipchipbro]

Yea my schedule is little weird. I tried to have a little stronger mid day lighting. My “sunset” light is all over the place. I did the big NO NO and set to my eyes. I like how it changes so much when I get home from work till it goes dark. Every time I look at the tank from 7 to 11 it is different and I dig it. I would clean it up but I don’t want to mess with a good thing. The pictures of my tank with the big colony’s was reset back in July cause my tank was having silicone issues and Red Sea replaced. I cut and gave away all the SPS and the little tiny encrusted pieces left on the rock are growing back out into great pieces. It’s amazing because I thought I scraped it all off but as you can see they are survivors! What you see now was nothing but 1 or 2 polyps 6 months ago. I honestly was done with acro’s and wanted a more LPS heavy mixed reef. If I was trying to grow the acro’s back out they probably would of never made it. I just left everything alone. None of the acro’s in my tank are super demanding of high light. I love starting with hardly anything and growing stuff out, that is what keeps me going in the hobby. You know what they say if it’s not broke don’t fix it.

that sounds very very interesting!
It sounds amazing that the small polyps growed again to nice colonies! WOW! chapeau!

So I do actually try to optimize my AI Prime HD for me Red Sea Max Nano 20g (18“ cube)

I had problems with whites over 20% and I am now looking for a nice schedule with only 1 Prime.

What would you recommend?

I tried to crank my blues, royal blue, violet and UV to almost 100% but I am not sure if that is really a good thing…

 

[Waynerock]

i am sorry to jump on this.
You only dose all for reef and thats it?
I was thinking to start balling light.

But if all for reef is enough for s nano with acros to thrive I would go for this 10/10.

Yup. 29 ml AFR daily and I feed a mixture of LRS and some TDO pellets and a sprinkle of roids. I just mix it all up in a zip loc and freeze it back up and put maybe a pinch in for the fish every night. Maybe once a week I dose a little iodide when I remember. The shrooms seem to enjoy that…maybe it’s hard to tell. Since I run carbon 24/7 the iodide does not last. AFR is the secret sauce for stability for me. I am not joking about guessing what my test numbers are gonna be. It keeps the tank right at 9 alk 460 cal 1460 MG and no3 is 13.2 and po4 is .04. The biggest draw back WAS price but the powder changed all that. Just one doser and food that’s it.

 

[Waynerock]

that sounds very very interesting!
It sounds amazing that the small polyps growed again to nice colonies! WOW! chapeau!

So I do actually try to optimize my AI Prime HD for me Red Sea Max Nano 20g (18“ cube)

I had problems with whites over 20% and I am now looking for a nice schedule with only 1 Prime.

What would you recommend?

I tried to crank my blues, royal blue, violet and UV to almost 100% but I am not sure if that is really a good thing…

I can send you my schedule and you can see if you like it. It’s a lot easier to make changes than to start from the ground up. I don’t care for the AB plus, not on these lights anyway

 

[chipchipbro]

I can send you my schedule and you can see if you like it. It’s a lot easier to make changes than to start from the ground up. I don’t care for the AB plus, not on these lights anyway

yeah why not, I would love to try the schedule and see how it works.

Not sure as you said u use 3 AI Primes and I only have 1. Do I have to raise intensity for each color when using that schedule with only 1 AI Prime then?