Programmable Logic: Need help to shutoff heater if flow sensor reads 0 flow

Discussion in 'GHL Advanced Technology' started by sntmods, Feb 1, 2019.

  1. sntmods

    sntmods Active Member

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    Is there anyway I can use the logic functions within the Profilix 4 to set this up?

    I want my eheim jaeger heater, which is hooked up to switch socket 5, to shut off in the case that my GHL flow sensor reads zero flow.

    I want to do this because my heater is installed inline within a pvc contraption. Although I have recently redone my plumbing to make sure the heater doesnt run dry in this event, I dont want to risk heating the pvc pipe up to the point of it bending the pipe.

    Any experienced people with the GHL logic? I cant make heads or tails of it and the last time I went fiddling around I almost crashed my tank by overdosing alkalinity solution.
     

  2. Ditto

    Ditto Valuable Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Partner Member 2019 Hospitality Award Build Thread Contributor Controller Advisor

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    @sntmods - Not based on the flow dropping, it in the wish list on there forums.

    But I always think outside the box with these type of questions also :)

    1- We could use the general alarm, but in turn the heater would turn off not just if the flow turned 0, but if any general alarm came up (Like a PABCOM Error)
    2- Program a virtual temp probe with different settings, that would trigger (Would be a lower temp) because the tank temp dropped, because water stop flowing through the PVC contraption?

    @Vinny@GHLUSA , @Marco@GHLUSA , @Lasse @WWIII any idea also?
     
  3. ispookie666

    ispookie666 Active Member

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    I use sump water level and Return pump in an AND function for my Troptronic UV
     
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  4. Lasse

    Lasse Valuable Member R2R Supporter Reef Squad Leader R2R Excellence Award Reef Tank 365 Article Contributor Build Thread Contributor

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    Now I´m on unsure ground because I do not have any flow meter to do experiment with. This may be just a fairy tale or the worlds greatest work around :)

    But fact - the flow meter works through (in some way) the level input. You have to assign your flow meter to a level input.

    At the level inputs - you have a state indicator.

    Screen Shot 02-02-19 at 10.35 AM.PNG

    I do not know how this will react to the alarm level on the flowmeter - but if they have used this state indicator in order to have alarms for the flow indicator - I supose you can do a work around. Is rather easy to test this. Configure a alarm level on your flow meter. Run the flow and switch of the flow and observe the state indicator. If it changes you can do a work around. Set up a control circuit as a virtual auto top off. Let it use the same level sensor as your flow meter. Now you have to figure out how to use the invert function but the general idea is that you should use a PL function for the socket that manage your heater. The PL should be Temperatur x increase AND Fill water (ATO only) y (y is the number your constructed virtual control circuit) You have to test if you need to use inverted function or not.

    As I said - it is a long shot

    Otherwise Dittos two suggestions should work. Your water heater circuit - is it on the return pump or a close loop in the sump?

    Let me know if it works :)

    Sincerely Lasse
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2019
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  5. Lasse

    Lasse Valuable Member R2R Supporter Reef Squad Leader R2R Excellence Award Reef Tank 365 Article Contributor Build Thread Contributor

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    PS

    If it work - you have to set the maximum on time to 0:00:00 (it means No max time) And maybe check the reset auto... box too

    Screen Shot 02-02-19 at 11.09 AM.PNG
    Sincerely Lasse
     
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  6. Ditto

    Ditto Valuable Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Partner Member 2019 Hospitality Award Build Thread Contributor Controller Advisor

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    Thanks you guys!!!

    Totally overlooked the use of the float switches, which I have been using to turn off my sump when the water gets high!!
     
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  7. sntmods

    sntmods Active Member

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    For the purpose to test this theory I've set the Flow Sensor alarm threshold to be anything less than 2200l/hour as the flow never gets higher than that figure under it's current setup.

    "Operation mode" is setup to "Auto top off".

    I've configured the "virtual level sensor" to use the signal from the flow sensor which is @ sensor 1. The "state" changes to "fill" but acts intermittently, it wont trigger "alarm". The intermittent action may be due to the slight changes in flow across the sensor as it reads pulses; example: measurement is sent from sensor when the flow changes from 2085l/hour to 2015l/hour.

    The Profilix alarm DOES sound and I receive the alarm notification but it is not reflected as an alarm for the "virtual level sensor" that we attempted to setup. In other words, the "state" never displays "alarm".

    I did setup the Programmable Logic as detailed above but I dont believe it will work without the alarm properly triggering for the "virtual level sensor".

    Any other ideas?
     
  8. Ditto

    Ditto Valuable Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Partner Member 2019 Hospitality Award Build Thread Contributor Controller Advisor

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    But if we use the basic Alarm Function would it work, it does :)

    I just set one of my flows to replicate the same sensor.

    I set them very high to replicate the issue easily :)
    flow_issue.png

    Duplicating the Sensor to another one allows me to set a different value for that one and that the one I want to use to alarm. This allows you to pretty much now set what ever you wish to be the alarm point.

    Then I did a Gate Logic (make sure you invert the alarm)
    gate_logic.png

    Then I assigned the gate Logic to an outlet to test
    switch_logic.png

    As you can see in this shot the Outlet is on, because I disabled flow sensor 4, but if I enable it because it simulating the flow is low the alarm sounds :)
    alarm_whoohoo.png

    And S46 is now off
    46 is now off.png
    This is not a perfect solution, as you could get an alarm for something else, that would shut it off, but using the alarm does work, when the flow drops down below X.

    By any chance you have a Float switch inside your Sump we could trigger off that?
     
  9. sntmods

    sntmods Active Member

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    Can we use the "fill" as a "state" to work with rather than alarm?

    I'm currently playing with the "reaction time" for sensor 1 to see if that can eliminate the intermittent trigger for "fill". It was first set to one second.
     
  10. sntmods

    sntmods Active Member

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    No sump level sensor
     
  11. sntmods

    sntmods Active Member

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    A minimum 4 second reaction time appears to remove the intermittent trigger.
     
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  12. Ditto

    Ditto Valuable Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Partner Member 2019 Hospitality Award Build Thread Contributor Controller Advisor

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    I just tried @Lasse ides also and had to set mine to minimum of 5 and got it to work, Return Pump did not work, but Leak Detector did work also, was about 7 seconds after I turned off my return pump.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2019
  13. Lasse

    Lasse Valuable Member R2R Supporter Reef Squad Leader R2R Excellence Award Reef Tank 365 Article Contributor Build Thread Contributor

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    Looks like you will work it out. Please post the programming when you have it to work.

    Sincerely Lasse
     
  14. sntmods

    sntmods Active Member

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    I cant seem to get this to work at all. I'm giving up for the day.
     
  15. Marco@GHLUSA

    Marco@GHLUSA GHL Team R2R Supporter Platinum Sponsor

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    What size heater are you using. S5 is probably not a good socket to use for a heater, it has a lower amp rating due to being a switchable/dimmable socket.
     
  16. sntmods

    sntmods Active Member

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    It's a 300 watt eheim jager, I'm seeing a 2.3 amp draw with it from Control Center. Should I move it to another socket?
     
  17. Ditto

    Ditto Valuable Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Partner Member 2019 Hospitality Award Build Thread Contributor Controller Advisor

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    @sntmods - Yes you should should stay below 2.2 amps on that socket.
     
  18. sntmods

    sntmods Active Member

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    The heater is on the return pump line after a manifold that feeds a few reactors.

    20190117_095811.jpg

    A Uniseal and some electrical tape wrapped around the very top glass of the heater keep this Eheim Jager from leaking.

    I finally replaced the whole section of PVC due to a small leak that came back @ one of the cemented joints. Instead of being 1 1/4" pvc pipe for the heater to sit within, it's now 1 1/2".

    20190117_130959.jpg
     
  19. sntmods

    sntmods Active Member

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    Thanks for the heads up, I've switched it to socket 2.
     
  20. Lasse

    Lasse Valuable Member R2R Supporter Reef Squad Leader R2R Excellence Award Reef Tank 365 Article Contributor Build Thread Contributor

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    I had a similar problem in one of my jobs. I let the outlet from the filter going down in a bucket above the water level of the sump. The bucket had one "surface holding" hole rather high up in the bucket. The genereal idea was that the water should run into the bucket from above - waterlevel rise and the hole became an outlet. In the bottom there was a tiny hole. A float switch was placed just below the "normal" level. When the flow trough the filter was zero - the tiny hole in the bottom empty the bucket and the float switch change status and the pump stop.

    Sincerely Lasse
     
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