QT tank, dose or observe only?

[13rodo]

Please don’t post non related things and be careful what you read. These are fish and not people

Same principle applies for treating diseases. It’s an analogy and completely relevant so the OP can make their own decision.

Trying to act like preemptively treating diseases is the right way would make anyone in human medicine cringe… i know I’m married to one.

 

[dirtyd61]

Be careful what you read

Fair enough, but it says on the bottle itself it isn’t invert safe.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Same principle applies for treating diseases. It’s an analogy and completely relevant so the OP can make their own decision.

Trying to act like preemptively treating diseases is the right way would make anyone in human medicine cringe… i know I’m married to one.

And I’m a certified nurse… your point? @Jay Hemdal

 

[13rodo]

And I’m a certified nurse… your point? @Jay Hemdal

Then you should know.

You should also know that brook is common in clowns. And you and Jay’s opinion is not the only way… I’d bet Paul B wouldn’t agree with y’all. But he also wouldn’t try and act like his opinion is the only one.

 

[13rodo]

Anyways done arguing… @dirtyd61 you should read and make your own choices. That was the point. You should also be mindful of people who aggressively act like their way is the only way… there are a lot different ways to reef and you should do what you think is best for you.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

I’m in the observation first camp. Think about it… copper is toxic, which is how it kills parasites. Would you recommend a human get treated with chemo proactively? No, because the damage done would likely not be worth it. Treating with toxins is an extreme measure for an extreme circumstance.

Except that the amine chelated copper products are mild to fish. All you hear about copper being toxic to fish is based on ionic copper. The only fish you need to avoid with amine chelated copper is sharks and rays.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Figure this is the right forum for QT talk. I have a 10g QT set up for use with my 32g cube.

About to throw two clowns in it. Should I dose the tank with Copper Aid or similar regardless of them showing symptoms OR observe and dose if symptoms appear?

I see our current quarantine protocol has been linked for you already.

As a retired aquarium curator, I’ve always done this, EVERY fish gets a proactive quarantine. The only downside to doing this is the effort it takes.

The two main things in your set up is to ensure that the tank has an established biofilter and to avoid wild caught clownfish (due to the brooklynella issue).

 

[13rodo]

Except that the amine chelated copper products are mild to fish. All you hear about copper being toxic to fish is based on ionic copper. The only fish you need to avoid with amine chelated copper is sharks and rays.

Like I said… mild does not equal non-toxic. Mild does not equal risk-free.

Not getting into it anymore. You have your view which is very pro-medication (even if there is no problem) and I have mine. I sure won’t ever medicate a perfectly healthy fish just because.

 

[vcnt]

I’ve always done this, EVERY fish gets a proactive quarantine.

Hey Jay,

Approx what percent of your QT's have you found that something actually pops up?
Sorry for the weird wording

 

[dirtyd61]

I see our current quarantine protocol has been linked for you already.

As a retired aquarium curator, I’ve always done this, EVERY fish gets a proactive quarantine. The only downside to doing this is the effort it takes.

The two main things in your set up is to ensure that the tank has an established biofilter and to avoid wild caught clownfish (due to the brooklynella issue).

I was under the impression the chelated copper will hurt/kill off the biofilter, but I may be wrong? My QT has a HOB with quartz rings in it. I seeded it from my DT. I also have a sponge filter on hand.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Like I said… mild does not equal non-toxic. Mild does not equal risk-free.

Not getting into it anymore. You have your view which is very pro-medication (even if there is no problem) and I have mine. I sure won’t ever medicate a perfectly healthy fish just because.

This is a morbidity versus mortality question - I’ve dosed literally thousands of fish with amine-chelated copper products and never lost one to copper toxicity in close to fifty years. I’ve not lost any fish to protozoan infections in over a decade while using these products. If copper is “toxic”, yet shows no mortality, I’ll take it every time over losing fish to uncontrolled protozoan diseases.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

I was under the impression the chelated copper will hurt/kill off the biofilter, but I may be wrong? My QT has a HOB with quartz rings in it. I seeded it from my DT. I also have a sponge filter on hand.

I’ve done testing years ago that shows ionic copper sets biofilters back by about 25%.
Amine chelated copper products are even less likely to harm nitrifying bacteria.

What can happen is people often set up these treatment tanks “on the fly” and the biofilter isn’t really operating properly - they add copper and develop an ammonia issue, and erroneously blame the copper.

Another issue is that amine chelated copper products will show about 0.50 ppm of ammonia in tanks treated with them. This is from ammonia that is bound to the copper and renders both the copper and that ammonia less toxic. You can discount any ammonia reading less than 0.50 ppm as being due to that.

 

[13rodo]

This is a morbidity versus mortality question - I’ve dosed literally thousands of fish with amine-chelated copper products and never lost one to copper toxicity in close to fifty years. I’ve not lost any fish to protozoan infections in over a decade while using these products. If copper is “toxic”, yet shows no mortality, I’ll take it every time over losing fish to uncontrolled protozoan diseases.

And that’s your choice. I choose something different and that’s ok. I said what I do and why but told the OP to read and make their own decision.

Your personal experience doesn’t make it fact. I’m not the one here acting like I’m the authority and saying “thou shall follow my method or you’re wrong”. The OP asked for opinions on preemptive medication or observation. I gave mine. The group think is the only confirmed disease in this thread. Have a great evening!

 

[larrysaltisfun]

I was under the impression the chelated copper will hurt/kill off the biofilter, but I may be wrong? My QT has a HOB with quartz rings in it. I seeded it from my DT. I also have a sponge filter on hand.

I’ve done testing years ago that shows ionic copper sets biofilters back by about 25%.
Amine chelated copper products are even less likely to harm nitrifying bacteria.

What can happen is people often set up these treatment tanks “on the fly” and the biofilter isn’t really operating properly - they add copper and develop an ammonia issue, and erroneously blame the copper.

Another issue is that amine chelated copper products will show about 0.50 ppm of ammonia in tanks treated with them. This is from ammonia that is bound to the copper and renders both the copper and that ammonia less toxic. You can discount any ammonia reading less than 0.50 ppm as being due to that.

Hey Jay, does ammonia bound copper Make the 2 .25-2.5 goal less reliable if there’s .5 ammonia in the water?

 

[dirtyd61]

I’ve done testing years ago that shows ionic copper sets biofilters back by about 25%.
Amine chelated copper products are even less likely to harm nitrifying bacteria.

What can happen is people often set up these treatment tanks “on the fly” and the biofilter isn’t really operating properly - they add copper and develop an ammonia issue, and erroneously blame the copper.

Another issue is that amine chelated copper products will show about 0.50 ppm of ammonia in tanks treated with them. This is from ammonia that is bound to the copper and renders both the copper and that ammonia less toxic. You can discount any ammonia reading less than 0.50 ppm as being due to that.

Ok good to know. The reef store I go to locally said their water has copper in it so make sure to not put it in my tanks. I have this on hand if needed.

 

[13rodo]

Ok good to know. The reef store I go to locally said their water has copper in it so make sure to not put it in my tanks. I have this on hand if needed.

By the way OP, I hope your QT goes really well and your fish are happy and healthy :)

 

[exnisstech]

Ok good to know. The reef store I go to locally said their water has copper in it so make sure to not put it in my tanks.

A bit of FYI. Many stores run low level copper and or low salinty which can hide disease that becomes active when fish are acclimated to normal salinty. After introducing velvet that way I no longer buy fish that are not housed in tanks with coral or inverts. Many will flat out lie and say it prevents disease but that isn't true.

 

[dirtyd61]

A bit of FYI. Many stores run low level copper and or low salinty which can hide disease that becomes active when fish are acclimated to normal salinty. After introducing velvet that way I no longer buy fish that are not housed in tanks with coral or inverts. Many will flat out lie and say it prevents disease but that isn't true.

Yea I mean I prob wouldn’t buy at the big box but this place has always been good to me. Salt only shop. I’d prefer to just do the observation method and keep this tank clean. But I guess I’ll have to think about it. Don’t really have the space for multiple QTs for diff stuff.

 

[Squidward]

I hate wasting time. Treat as needed ASAP. Or go my route and do TTM as it ony takes 12 days.

 

[exnisstech]

I may be wrong but I feel if I'm not seeing any sign of disease after 30 days minimum in observation I'm safe.
I'm sure its something i did wrong but I had too many deaths in medicated QT so I stopped.