QT tank, dose or observe only?

[13rodo]

There's a pretty obvious double standard here.

You're demanding peer-reviewed evidence from Jay, but your own argument is basically "I'm a research scientist", "my spouse works in medicine" and "Paul B doesn't quarantine". None of that is peer reviewed either and nobody can even verify your credentials because you choose to stay anonymous.

You also said Jay only has two publications, which is just false. He has multiple peer reviewed papers, books, article and decades of actual aquarium experience.

Sure, copper isn't completely risk free and different fish can react differently. That's a fair discussion. But comparing it to giving healthy people chemo is ridiculous. Fish can carry parasites without showing any symptoms, and unlike cancer, those parasites can spread and infect your entire tank. That's the whole reason people treat proactively.

Calling Jay a pseudoscientist while using anecdotes and an unverifiable job title to back yourself up is pretty ironic.

Anyway, I've said my piece. I've personally had great experiences with Jay. He's helped me save several of my fish, has always been there to help and has consistently been a great source of information. That's all I'm going to say about this.

That’s fair enough about my job. Like I said not doxing myself. Whether you believe it or not doesn’t negate the truth of it.

If you read I have been very clear that my OPINIONS are my own and the OP should make their own choices.

I never once said I was a fish expert. I said I’m in research in aerospace, but the scientific method relies on peer review. Someone acting like their anecdotal evidence is science is folly.

So no, there is no double standard. I haven’t presented a single thing as scientific evidence of anything and I’ve pointed out that if you claim scientific evidence you should back it up with peer reviewed sources. That’s how it works. You yourself just said we said be able to debate the merits of preemptive treatment, but when I tried to I was met with this… apparently you can’t.

There seems to be a lot of putting words in my mouth. I said I agree with Paul. I did not say it was based in anything other than anecdote. Fish Medics came in and basically said we were all wrong and giving bad advice on preemptive quarantine. I pointed out that their evidence was also based in anecdote and thus not scientific fact.

Continue to try and spin it. I’m sorry I’m not going back off because someone with a staff badge acts like their method is the only correct way.

 

[13rodo]

Oh - but Drum and Croaker is perhaps BETTER than peer reviewed - it is based on peer pressure! My fellow professional aquarists read that work, and if I make an error, I get called out, and that is quite embarrassing at the next Regional Aquarist Workshop meeting, or worse yet, having a rebuttal published in a subsequent issue! I try very hard to avoid that (grin).

As for books - I agree, self-published books are a dime a dozen, anyone can do that now with AI. All but one of my books was reviewed by professional editors, and let me tell you, they are TOUGH. For my "Advanced Marine Aquarium Techniques", it took close to a year of revisions, with multiple people weighing in on it, before TFH published it....

Look man I’m sure you’re a great person. But whether you believe it or not I am a member of the aerospace scientific community and do not accept non-peer reviewed sources as scientific. All my publications are peer reviewed and if it didn’t pass the peer review process I’d work harder to address my peers’ concerns. That’s what keeps science rigid… it invites debate and stands up to scrutiny. Anyone can drop whatever into a journal.

I really am tired of arguing as I get on this forum to unwind from a very stressful job. I understand you are well regarded here, but I hope maybe you’ll be more open to the fact that your experience is only that and that it’s not the only way.

 

[MnFish1]

I’m in the observation first camp. Think about it… copper is toxic, which is how it kills parasites. Would you recommend a human get treated with chemo proactively? No, because the damage done would likely not be worth it. Treating with toxins is an extreme measure for an extreme circumstance.

Actually, your comment/analogy is a little false. Chemo is a different issue. However, there are numerous bacterial illness and parasitic illnesses that humans take as prophylaxis. Start with a penicillin derivative for preventing endocarditis for certain people before dental work. Consider antibiotic prophylaxis that given before nearly every surgery, as well as the prophylactic medication given for malaria.

 

[MnFish1]

Observation wastes valuable time for treatment allowing any given disease to take hold of a fish.

I was wondering how long it would be before someone stated this.
I get it but I won't do it any more than I would take medications because I think I may get sick. Heck I rarely take any medication even if I am sick and don't get physical exams because I'm not looking for something to treat. I treat animals under my care similar to how I treat myself.
Different strokes for different folks.

you may be lucky because of one key thing that you do that most people do not. Thats 'being very careful with how your source your fish'. If, though you have a high bioload tank, with non-quarantined fish, observation or not, you're likely to have a problem at one point or another. I do not believe that fish care whether one has live rock in your tank or PVC, after all fish and invertebrates colonize sunken ships. I think in this OP's tank the light is way too bright, which is a problem.

 

[MnFish1]

Look man I’m sure you’re a great person. But whether you believe it or not I am a member of the aerospace scientific community and do not accept non-peer reviewed sources as scientific. All my publications are peer reviewed and if it didn’t pass the peer review process I’d work harder to address my peers’ concerns. That’s what keeps science rigid… it invites debate and stands up to scrutiny. Anyone can drop whatever into a journal.

I really am tired of arguing as I get on this forum to unwind from a very stressful job. I understand you are well regarded here, but I hope maybe you’ll be more open to the fact that your experience is only that and that it’s not the only way.

I'm a scientist too, and whether peer-reviewed or not, not all scientific articles turn out to be correct in the long-run. I believe you're in the aerospace community, which has very little to do with the biology scientific community. If you want a peer reviewed article, here is one: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33827166/

 

[13rodo]

Actually, your comment/analogy is a little false. Chemo is a different issue. However, there are numerous bacterial illness and parasitic illnesses that humans take as prophylaxis. Start with a penicillin derivative for preventing endocarditis for certain people before dental work. Consider antibiotic prophylaxis that given before nearly every surgery, as well as the prophylactic medication given for malaria.

Hey look another “Fish Medics” trying to convince me that you must agree with preemptive QT…

Every example you just gave “before certain dental work”… “before nearly every surgery”… involves a situation where there is a KNOWN PROBLEM.

This whole thread is about introducing a toxic with zero known problems. Jesus it’s like a broken record.

 

[MnFish1]

Completely understand but “less” harmful is still harmful and stressful. If I saw signs of problems I’d treat what I saw because there are different treatments for different things.

You don't have any science to say that, right? I mean - define 'stressful'. How is copper safe 'harmful'.

 

[13rodo]

I'm a scientist too, and whether peer-reviewed or not, not all scientific articles turn out to be correct in the long-run. I believe you're in the aerospace community, which has very little to do with the biology scientific community. If you want a peer reviewed article, here is one: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33827166/

LOL thanks for this article that proves my point:

From 2004 to 2016, mortality during copper treatment was 4.1% (199/4,835 individuals) and was higher when treatment was started during the first week of quarantine (7.7%, 68/884) rather than later (3.3%, 131/3,951 individuals).

Copper is NOT non-toxic and not immediately introducing copper REDUCED mortality!

 

[13rodo]

You don't have any science to say that, right? I mean - define 'stressful'. How is copper safe 'harmful'.

Actually the article you linked does

 

[MnFish1]

Hey look another “Fish Medics” trying to convince me that you must agree with preemptive QT…

Every example you just gave “before certain dental work”… “before nearly every surgery”… involves a situation where there is a KNOWN PROBLEM.

This whole thread is about introducing a toxic with zero known problems. Jesus it’s like a broken record.

I would suggest you re-read my post, and show me when I said 'you must agree with preemptive QT'. You are absolutely incorrect. Each example I gave you there is no 'problem'. People that get off the plane in a malaria prone area take prophylactic anti malarial drugs. When they start taking the medication they do not have malaria, they are trying to 'prevent it'. And those medications have toxicity. It is exactly analogous to using copper safe prophylactically to prevent a parasitic illness in fish.

 

[MnFish1]

LOL thanks for this article that proves my point:

From 2004 to 2016, mortality during copper treatment was 4.1% (199/4,835 individuals) and was higher when treatment was started during the first week of quarantine (7.7%, 68/884) rather than later (3.3%, 131/3,951 individuals).

Copper is NOT non-toxic and not immediately introducing copper REDUCED mortality!

Actually, the article doesn't prove your point. the conclusion of the article was "When using a similar methodology, copper sulfate is a safe immersion for quarantine of marine teleosts. Mortalities during copper treatment can be reduced by increasing copper ion levels to therapeutic ranges more slowly (e.g., over 7 days) and starting copper treatment after the first week of quarantine". Most of the fish we buy have already been in captivity for a week so - starting a quarantine protocol fits exactly this article and what is recommended on this site.

 

[13rodo]

How many more Fish Medics want to pile on? Do y’all get a kick back from Copper Power?

I don’t believe in preemptive medication QT… get over it.

 

[MnFish1]

Figure this is the right forum for QT talk. I have a 10g QT set up for use with my 32g cube.

About to throw two clowns in it. Should I dose the tank with Copper Aid or similar regardless of them showing symptoms OR observe and dose if symptoms appear?

Anyway - ignoring all of the back and forth, the only change I would make to your tank would be to lower the lighting. its too bright IMHO

 

[MnFish1]

How many more Fish Medics want to pile on? Do y’all get a kick back from Copper Power?

I don’t believe in preemptive medication QT… get over it.

No one cares what you personally believe, I'm posting for the other people reading, the reasons why your 'thoughts' might be incorrect. And additionally be harmful. It's a discussion board. Discuss:)

 

[dirtyd61]

Anyway - ignoring all of the back and forth, the only change I would make to your tank would be to lower the lighting. its too bright IMHO

I could just turn them off. There’s no real option to dim these. It’s a little Aqueon hood with three small LED modules. Like for a kids tank.

 

[13rodo]

No one cares what you personally believe, I'm posting for the other people reading, the reasons why your 'thoughts' might be incorrect. And additionally be harmful. It's a discussion board. Discuss:)

My thought might be incorrect… I’m the only one who said it was an opinion. You, vette, fish fan, Jay have basically said anything other than your point of view is wrong. Don’t twist it.

Your own article even says some mortality is associated with Cu, which is contrary to Jay’s assertion there is none.

However I respect the fact you linked a paper and if I misinterpreted it then fine.

 

[exnisstech]

high bioload tank, with non-quarantined fish, observation or not, you're likely to have a problem at one point or another.

That's like saying if there are too many people living in a house and no one ever gets vaccinated at some point eventually everyone is going to get sick and die.
Sorry that's what I hear when I read that. No need to reply because we see things differently and im not trying to prove anything or have anything proven to me. I'm fine with my anecdotal evidence.

PS. If I have a tank wipe out from disease I'll post here and admit I was wrong.

 

[MnFish1]

My thought might be incorrect… I’m the only one who said it was an opinion. You, vette, fish fan, Jay have basically said anything other than your point of view is wrong. Don’t twist it.

Your own article even says some mortality is associated with Cu, which is contrary to Jay’s assertion there is none.

However I respect the fact you linked a paper and if I misinterpreted it then fine.

Yes the article said that. However, do you see where it in the sentence you quoted, mentioned the mortality of not quarantining?

 

[13rodo]

That's like staying if there are too many people living in a house and no one ever gets vaccinated at some point eventually everyone is going to get sick and die.
Sorry that's what I hear when I read that. No need to reply because we see things differently and im not trying to prove anything or have anything proven to me. I'm fine with my anecdotal evidence.

PS. If I have a tank wipe out from disease I'll post here and admit I was wrong.

The thing that gets me is these people have special badges to make their opinions seem higher than us plebs. There is a single way to reef I guess. Like Jesus the echo chamber is why I got off social media.

 

[MnFish1]

My thought might be incorrect… I’m the only one who said it was an opinion. You, vette, fish fan, Jay have basically said anything other than your point of view is wrong. Don’t twist it.

Your own article even says some mortality is associated with Cu, which is contrary to Jay’s assertion there is none.

However I respect the fact you linked a paper and if I misinterpreted it then fine.

In reality, you're incorrect. I have never personally had a QT tank. I've never dosed copper, or Praziquantel. I buy my fish much like @exnisstech from carefully chosen stores, one time after buying a large number of fish at one time online (which I don't normally do) my entire tank was wiped out in 2 weeks. There are a number of ways to skin a cat. Yours is one, the recommendations on this site (which I fully support, because I don't feel many beginning aquarium owners can recognize disease early enough to treat it, resulting in excess mortality that is unnecessary. So - I don't believe I was twisting anything.