QT tank size for CP treatment?

[Elbereth]

I'm planning to do a prophylactic chloroquine phosphate treatment on some new fish, following protocol #2 here:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/chloroquine-phosphate.192309/
I'm sure I'm overthinking this but it's my first time using CP and treating more than two fish in one QT so I'd appreciate some advice. I have a 14 and a 21 gallon tanks (exact volumes) and I'll be treating two small clownfish, a starry blenny, a mandarin and a small scooter blenny. My main concern is nitrate levels rising quicker during treatment in a smaller tank vs. the ease of keeping a smaller tank well oxygenated. Or should I do water changes with pre-treated water if nitrates get too high?

Thanks in advance.

 

[vetteguy53081]

I'm planning to do a prophylactic chloroquine phosphate treatment on some new fish, following protocol #2 here:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/chloroquine-phosphate.192309/
I'm sure I'm overthinking this but it's my first time using CP and treating more than two fish in one QT so I'd appreciate some advice. I have a 14 and a 21 gallon tanks (exact volumes) and I'll be treating two small clownfish, a starry blenny, a mandarin and a small scooter blenny. My main concern is nitrate levels rising quicker during treatment in a smaller tank vs. the ease of keeping a smaller tank well oxygenated. Or should I do water changes with pre-treated water if nitrates get too high?

Thanks in advance.

Make sure CP is used precisely

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

I'm planning to do a prophylactic chloroquine phosphate treatment on some new fish, following protocol #2 here:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/chloroquine-phosphate.192309/
I'm sure I'm overthinking this but it's my first time using CP and treating more than two fish in one QT so I'd appreciate some advice. I have a 14 and a 21 gallon tanks (exact volumes) and I'll be treating two small clownfish, a starry blenny, a mandarin and a small scooter blenny. My main concern is nitrate levels rising quicker during treatment in a smaller tank vs. the ease of keeping a smaller tank well oxygenated. Or should I do water changes with pre-treated water if nitrates get too high?

Thanks in advance.

Nitrate levels are not the issue. In fact, the bacteria that degrade chloroquine do so to get the nitrogen from it. Having other sources of nitrogen for the bacteria to act on might actually slow down the degradation of the chloroquine.

There is a LOT of confusion about degradation of chloroquine. The Shedd Aquarium study notwithstanding, I never found the degradation to be too quick to happen. However, there are rumors that the method I used to measure chloroquine (a UV spectrophotometer) does not tell the difference between active chloroquine and chloroquine that has been decomposed by bacteria. This seems to be a rumor though, I cannot find a reference to that in the literature.

I think you should rethink the whole idea of using CP. The problem with quarantining mandarins is not related to amine-chelated copper products, but rather, a lack of food while in the QT. The old ionic copper products were rough on mandarins, and that's where a lot of this opinion came from. Also, CP is pretty toxic. I actually stopped using it about a decade ago; we had a case of ich that wasn't responding to 15 mg/l CP, so I bumped it to 20 and we lost all the lionfish and many wrasses.

Here is a link to my CP article from back when I was a bit more of a booster for its use:
https://reefs.com/magazine/aquarium-fish-chloroquine-a-new-drug-for-treating-fish-diseases/
Jay

 

[Elbereth]

Thanks for all this info Jay. I chose CP because I'd read it's less toxic than copper so that's concerning. I'm sorry you lost all those fish. Was it because of loss of appetite?

I'll be dosing at 10mg/L so hopefully the lower concentration will be less harsh on the fish. But I'll be careful to keep a close eye on them given your experience.

Since nitrates won't be an issue I guess I'll go with the 14g.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Thanks for all this info Jay. I chose CP because I'd read it's less toxic than copper so that's concerning. I'm sorry you lost all those fish. Was it because of loss of appetite?

I'll be dosing at 10mg/L so hopefully the lower concentration will be less harsh on the fish. But I'll be careful to keep a close eye on them given your experience.

Since nitrates won't be an issue I guess I'll go with the 14g.

No - we lost those fish about 4 hours after raising the dose of the CP. The lionfish all had guts full of fresh food. We lost about 7 or 8 fish total.

The trouble with 10 mg/l is that it is below the threshold for effective control. We had ich multiplying at 12 mg/l in one system.

 

[MnFish1]

I'm planning to do a prophylactic chloroquine phosphate treatment on some new fish, following protocol #2 here:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/chloroquine-phosphate.192309/
I'm sure I'm overthinking this but it's my first time using CP and treating more than two fish in one QT so I'd appreciate some advice. I have a 14 and a 21 gallon tanks (exact volumes) and I'll be treating two small clownfish, a starry blenny, a mandarin and a small scooter blenny. My main concern is nitrate levels rising quicker during treatment in a smaller tank vs. the ease of keeping a smaller tank well oxygenated. Or should I do water changes with pre-treated water if nitrates get too high?

Thanks in advance.

1. I would suggest that you measure the water directly (i.e. the amount you're putting in) - rather than relying on the exact volumes of the tank - because you may be adding other things - hiding places, etc.
2. I would carefully follow the article.
3. Nitrate, etc should be checked - but likely not going to cause a significant issue - as you said - a larger tank will be easier than the smaller one.
4. You should do water changes with pre-treated (Not sure whether you mean with more chloroquine added - or a chlorine remover).
5. As I'm sure others have said - increase aeration either way

 

[Elbereth]

No - we lost those fish about 4 hours after raising the dose of the CP. The lionfish all had guts full of fresh food. We lost about 7 or 8 fish total.

The trouble with 10 mg/l is that it is below the threshold for effective control. We had ich multiplying at 12 mg/l in one system.

That's very unfortunate. I'm just not sure if I want to give up on CP entirely. I know lots of hobbyists successfully use copper but I'd rather not go that route because of the long-term effects and the narrow safety margin. Plus I don't have the test and I've already gone through a fair bit of trouble to get the CP because it's not readily available here in Canada.

Would you say 10 mg/L is still acceptable for prophylactic purposes? I could do a black molly test after I move them to a new tank post treatment to make sure nothing got through. Or should I up to 12 mg/L?

 

[Elbereth]

1. I would suggest that you measure the water directly (i.e. the amount you're putting in) - rather than relying on the exact volumes of the tank - because you may be adding other things - hiding places, etc.
2. I would carefully follow the article.
3. Nitrate, etc should be checked - but likely not going to cause a significant issue - as you said - a larger tank will be easier than the smaller one.
4. You should do water changes with pre-treated (Not sure whether you mean with more chloroquine added - or a chlorine remover).
5. As I'm sure others have said - increase aeration either way

Thanks for the suggestions!

 

[MnFish1]

That's very unfortunate. I'm just not sure if I want to give up on CP entirely. I know lots of hobbyists successfully use copper but I'd rather not go that route because of the long-term effects and the narrow safety margin. Plus I don't have the test and I've already gone through a fair bit of trouble to get the CP because it's not readily available here in Canada.

Would you say 10 mg/L is still acceptable for prophylactic purposes? I could do a black molly test after I move them to a new tank post treatment to make sure nothing got through. Or should I up to 12 mg/L?

black mollie tests are not reliable

 

[Elbereth]

I figured as much which is why I'd only use it as a final test after a treatment like CP.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

That's very unfortunate. I'm just not sure if I want to give up on CP entirely. I know lots of hobbyists successfully use copper but I'd rather not go that route because of the long-term effects and the narrow safety margin. Plus I don't have the test and I've already gone through a fair bit of trouble to get the CP because it's not readily available here in Canada.

Would you say 10 mg/L is still acceptable for prophylactic purposes? I could do a black molly test after I move them to a new tank post treatment to make sure nothing got through. Or should I up to 12 mg/L?

No - you need 12 mg/l at the very least.

Remember that virtually ALL of the copper toxicity reports you read about were caused by ionic copper, not amine-chelated copper like coppersafe and copper power.

 

[Elbereth]

Interesting. So would you say chelated copper has no detrimental long term effects on fish? Or it has some still?

I'm very curious about the chemistry behind this. I'll have to read up on chelated copper!

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Interesting. So would you say chelated copper has no detrimental long term effects on fish? Or it has some still?

I'm very curious about the chemistry behind this. I'll have to read up on chelated copper!

No - there is no observed long term detrimental effects of using amine-chelated copper on fish. Public aquariums (mine included) use copper as a treatment during quarantine, yet they have some of the longest-lived fishes.

Here is a short write-up I did on this subject:

Mortality caused by medications, years after application. Copper, formalin and cyanide have all been implicated in fish loss years after exposure – this is not borne out by histopathology or veterinary necropsy. Public aquariums all have comprehensive, proactive quarantine/treatment protocols, yet they have some of the longest-lived fish. I've done three studies since 1983 that all show that latent cyanide mortality (while often severe) always manifests itself within 30 to 50 days of exposure. Long term copper exposure has been shown to cause damage to fish, but this is ionic, not chelated copper, and the toxicity appeared during or shortly after the copper exposure.

 

[Elbereth]

That's good to know. I might try copper in the future then. Thanks for all your help Jay!