Question for those that have a basement system. CO2!!!

anit77

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When I started my system a little over two years ago I had problems with the sand clumping due to Alk precipitating after I started dosing about 3 to 4 months in. Over the last year I don’t see much, if any, new clumping in the sand. But I continue to struggle with Alk consumption and lowered pH. I’m going to list as much as I can about my system below.

My entire system is in my basement and consists of an in-wall 210 display, a 60 frag and a 120 sump that reside in a fish/sump room. Total volume is approx 325 gallons. I have Chaeto in the center chamber in the sump and an ATS plumbed externally. Both are lit on a reverse cycle. My skimmer is a custom 48” MTC MVX that also runs externally. It pulls its air from an outside line that has a activated carbon chamber installed in case any aerosols get sprayed nearby. The exit air line runs to a DIY skimmate locker I made that has a carbon canister installed so the air leaving the bucket doesn’t stink the whole basement up. The bucket sits on the floor of the sump room.

My basement is concrete on three sides and day light on the back wall. The HVAC system for the basement is standalone and neither it, or the system for the floors above, have any type of fresh air input. I know that lower pH is mostly, if not entirely, dependent on the amount of CO2 in the water and surrounding air. All three tanks have ample surface agitation and there is an exhaust fan in the ceiling of the fish room. I have found that when the weather permits me to open a window down there that the pH will stay elevated and the Alk will stay stable between 9 and 9.5dkh. I had been dosing 2part with Cal during the day and Alk at night. My normal dose was 125ml per day. About 2 week ago I switched to dosing fully saturated Kalk at a rate of 1.54 gallons a day, being dosed 24/7. I did this in the hope that the Kalk would offset the CO2, but this does not seem to be the case and I’ve had to dose for Alk to keep the level up. It’s dropping at a level of 1 to .6dkh a day and the pH doesn’t rebound as high during the photo period. I switched to Kalk also because I’m planning on firing up a CARX soon. But right now, the extra CO2 is kind of putting me off on the idea. Coral growth has been pretty good and soon 2part is going to be harder to keep up.

There is no way I can open a window here in North Georgia this time of year. The heat and humidity are just too high. I’d like to know if I have missed something or if there is something else I can try before I break down and install an air exchange system in the basement. So, if you have a basement system is this something you’re dealing with or dealt with in the past and how have you combated CO2?
 

Brew12

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I ran the numbers and I agree with you that 1.54g should be very close to the same amount of alkalinity as 125ml of 2 part made with soda ash. So that part should work.

I am surprised that you aren't seeing a pH increase from the kalk dosing. I know mine has gone up using a smaller amount by tank volume. I add mine in 75 doses over 24 hours. You did mix it with 2 tsp per gallon for saturated kalkwasser, right? And you are minimizing air exchange in the Kalk storage to minimize CO2 impact with it, correct?

I'm at a loss as to why this is happening. It would make more sense to me if it were the other way around and you needed less kalk. Hope you don't mind my following along to learn more!
 
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anit77

anit77

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I'm mixing just slightly more than 2tps of kalk in gallon glass jugs with rodi water that are capped. I then siphon off into a 2.5 gallon plastic jug were it is dosed via my DOS at 6030ml per day. With feeding I average about 5880 to 5900ml a day which is still a little more than 1.54 gallons. The 2.5 gallon jug is also on the floor with a cap slightly loose for displacement and its topped off daily. Dosing this way is just for experimental purposes. If it worked I'd put in a kalk stirrer, I can't keep this up much longer cause it's a pita.

Sure follow along. I hope to get some info and pointers. I've got a feeling an air exchanger in my future though.
 

Brew12

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I've got a feeling an air exchanger in my future though.
In the long run, I think that is a good way to go. Not only for pH but to help humidity in the basement, too. I've seen pictures of a lot of rusty basements with aquarium sumps in them!
 

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I have my tanks in a basement setting similar to yours, although we do have an air exchanger in the home.
I struggled with low pH and high CO2 levels. During the hot and humid summer months, the air exchanger is turned off and thus heightened the issues.
I tried implementing a CO2 Scrubber with my protein skimmer, but the media was depleting so fast that it would've been a financial issue. I ended up running the air intake of my skimmer through a wall, soffit and ceiling (25-28ft of tubing) to the exterior wall so it could draw in fresh air on a constant basis. And it helped a lot! I believe my pH went from an average of 7.8 to staying around 8.1. Worth a shot; if possible.
 

Dennis Cartier

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I was in a similar situation, lower than desired PH. I ended up putting in an HRV (though I planned on putting in one anyway), running an external air line and dosing kalk through an Avast stirrer. I also purchased a CO2 monitor to put in my fish room. There are plenty of affordable CO2 monitors available and having one can help to see if you are going in the right direction and how effective changes are. I just checked mine, 416 ppm currently.

Dennis
 
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anit77

anit77

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Right now the co2 is 748ppm. When I got down here it was 730. If I have people over or workout down here it really shoots up. Normally it's just my wife, myself, a dog and 2 cats. And this reading is about standard with it closed up. When I can crack a window all day the co2 runs between 450 and 525.

I have a 3/4 PVC pipe run outside specially for the skimmer and occasionally a bubbler. I adjusted my alk up to 9.5 yesterday and the pH stayed at 8.14 through the photo period, then it dropped down to 7.97 over night and peaked at 8.04 today. Just measured alk and its 8.51. So beyond the 1.54 gallons of kalk it still dropped a point. Without an adjustment it will keep dropping until the alk is in the 6's and pH drops under 7.8 at night. I'm really scared about firing up the carx. It's all plumbed and ready to go too.

Oh, and when I can keep a window open the pH swing per day is 0.05ish +/- .01 and the alk is really steady.
 

Brew12

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Right now the co2 is 748ppm. When I got down here it was 730. If I have people over or workout down here it really shoots up. Normally it's just my wife, myself, a dog and 2 cats. And this reading is about standard with it closed up. When I can crack a window all day the co2 runs between 450 and 525.

I have a 3/4 PVC pipe run outside specially for the skimmer and occasionally a bubbler. I adjusted my alk up to 9.5 yesterday and the pH stayed at 8.14 through the photo period, then it dropped down to 7.97 over night and peaked at 8.04 today. Just measured alk and its 8.51. So beyond the 1.54 gallons of kalk it still dropped a point. Without an adjustment it will keep dropping until the alk is in the 6's and pH drops under 7.8 at night. I'm really scared about firing up the carx. It's all plumbed and ready to go too.

Oh, and when I can keep a window open the pH swing per day is 0.05ish +/- .01 and the alk is really steady.
Have you tried adjusting your powerheads so you don't get as much air exchange in your tank?

Is your pH probe between your skimmer and your return pump?
 
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anit77

anit77

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One last this is it wasn't this bad when I was dosing 2part with the alk at night vs running kalk 24/7. That and did I mention how much a pita it is mixing and topping off kalk like this... lol!
 
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anit77

anit77

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No I haven't tried mixing up the powerhead flow so there's less agitation. The main probe is between the skimmer and return pump. The 2nd is in the carx being fed from the manifold and returning to the drain/skimmer chamber.
I have 3 wave pumps in the DT and 3 jebao sw8's in the 60 frag, one blowing under the frag racks and two above blowing back towards the overflow.
7337aeab7d9fe843784fbb3a7d5744bc.jpg

c8c5186bd4a28bbb8525b02be57d7f42.jpg
 

Brew12

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The main probe is between the skimmer and return pump.
I'm not sure how long it takes for the equilibrium to be established with CO2. But, based on this I'm not sure how much I would expect adjusting the powerheads to help.
 

Dennis Cartier

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Right now the co2 is 748ppm. When I got down here it was 730. If I have people over or workout down here it really shoots up. Normally it's just my wife, myself, a dog and 2 cats. And this reading is about standard with it closed up. When I can crack a window all day the co2 runs between 450 and 525.

I have a 3/4 PVC pipe run outside specially for the skimmer and occasionally a bubbler. I adjusted my alk up to 9.5 yesterday and the pH stayed at 8.14 through the photo period, then it dropped down to 7.97 over night and peaked at 8.04 today. Just measured alk and its 8.51. So beyond the 1.54 gallons of kalk it still dropped a point. Without an adjustment it will keep dropping until the alk is in the 6's and pH drops under 7.8 at night. I'm really scared about firing up the carx. It's all plumbed and ready to go too.

Oh, and when I can keep a window open the pH swing per day is 0.05ish +/- .01 and the alk is really steady.

Oh, you already have a CO2 monitor. Great. I know you are hesitant to go whole home ventilation, but if your aquarium has an enclosed space, how about something like this ? https://na.panasonic.com/us/home-li.../energy-recovery-ventilators/whispercomforttm

If you have easy access to an outside wall, a small, single room ERV should be pretty effective.

Dennis
 
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anit77

anit77

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Oh, you already have a CO2 monitor. Great. I know you are hesitant to go whole home ventilation, but if your aquarium has an enclosed space, how about something like this ? https://na.panasonic.com/us/home-li.../energy-recovery-ventilators/whispercomforttm

If you have easy access to an outside wall, a small, single room ERV should be pretty effective.

Dennis
I have been looking at these smaller units for about 6 months. The spot I have access to in the room is where the exhaust fan is. The only other spot is on the opposite side of the basement. From what I've read this other area is actually better based on the direction that side of the house faces. My issue is the length I have to run the lines through a tight soffit. Well that and cutting holes in hardyplank is no fun.
 

Dennis Cartier

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I have been looking at these smaller units for about 6 months. The spot I have access to in the room is where the exhaust fan is. The only other spot is on the opposite side of the basement. From what I've read this other area is actually better based on the direction that side of the house faces. My issue is the length I have to run the lines through a tight soffit. Well that and cutting holes in hardyplank is no fun.
.
If you already have an exhaust fan there, and clearly that is not solving the issue, lowering the CO2 concentration in the whole house should. So your two choices would be too replace the exhaust fan with the spot ERV, or install a more comprehensive whole house ERV. Either way should solve the issue. In my previous house, I installed a whole house HRV and vented the fresh air into the fishroom (in the basement), while pulling the stale air from the upstairs at the opposite end of the house. That worked really well to keep the CO2 low around the tank. In my current house, I had an HRV installed for me (rather than doing it myself), and it uses a portion of the cold air return system to mixing and and pull stale air from. The previous installation style separate from the furnace was way more effective.

Dennis
 
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anit77

anit77

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I have a feeling the exhaust fan is pulling air from the middle floor down the stairs into the basement. When I can open a window down there within a few days it stabilizes the pH above 8. I also wonder how much co2 is released back into the room from the skimmer only to be reintroduced to the sump?

A whole house ERV is not an option as there's two floors over the basement, plus the attic. This also isn't the house we plan to retire in. We're planning on moving in a few years. That's why I'm hesitant to do anything major. We just got done remodeling about 80% of the house and funds are a little tight as well.

The other thing is the length of the piping is supposed to be the same for each line. That can get complicated based on where I can put one down there.

This is the one I've been looking at.

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Fantech...hutdown-Defrost-4-Side-Ports-up-to-1400-Sq-Ft

All said and done I'd be looking at around a grand, maybe a little less to get it put in.
 
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anit77

anit77

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The more I look at that Panasonic unit the more appealing its becoming. I just wonder about cross contamination outside and it doing the same inside. Where it pulls air back out that just came in.
 

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Here is how I fixed my co2 basement issue. My boss had an old radon blower that I repurposed to vent co2. I fought low ph and slow growth for along time. I would notice if I was able to leave my window open in my sump room I was able to raise the tanks ph. I was lucky to get above 8.0 during the day and over night sometimes would hit as low as 7.6. After the fan installation my overnight low is 8 with daytime ph levels between 8.2-8.3 This really made a difference in my corals and growth rates.

blower2.jpg


blower1.jpg
 

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I'm not sure how long it takes for the equilibrium to be established with CO2. But, based on this I'm not sure how much I would expect adjusting the powerheads to help.
Equilibrium between the atmospheric CO2 content in the basement & the tank water CO2 content would be near constant.

The time it takes for CO2 the gas to be hydrated into carbonic acid is around 11 seconds I believe, & from there conversion to carbonates & bi-carbonate is instant.

Figure1.jpg

Figure 1. Relative fraction of carbon dioxide and carbonic acid (black), bicarbonate (white) and carbonate (red) in seawater as a function of pH.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-10/rhf/index.php
 

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