Question for those that have a basement system. CO2!!!

[Scrubber_steve]

Is this typical of your pH levels?

7.97 isn't a problem in itself.

Revelle & Fairbridge reported pH levels of 9.4 on isolated coral reef pools during the heat of the day & falling to 7.4 at night.
A recent study at Heron Island (GBR) found that pH generally falls below 8.0 soon after midnight.

 

[Anton Wray]

Has anyone utilized plants to address excess CO2 in closed space envoronments ?
Aren't plants sort of natural CO2 scrubbers ?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

When I started my system a little over two years ago I had problems with the sand clumping due to Alk precipitating after I started dosing about 3 to 4 months in. Over the last year I don’t see much, if any, new clumping in the sand. But I continue to struggle with Alk consumption and lowered pH.

Sorry if this has been address in this thread already, but low pH and high alk consumption are opposite problems and do nto go hand in hand.

Elevated CO2 lowers pH, but that tends to reduce consumption of alk (both abiotic precipitation and coral calcification), not raise it.

As to basement CO2, I'm not sure how it why it would be accumulating in yours (it wouldn't in mine since no one is down there (if the tank is the only source, the the basement is not "causing" elevated CO2. That said, to reduce humidity, many people, myself included, use bathroom type fans to exhaust the humid and and that would tend to replace the air in the basement.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Has anyone utilized plants to address excess CO2 in closed space envoronments ?
Aren't plants sort of natural CO2 scrubbers ?

House plants? That's not effective enough because they generally grow too slowly. Think of it this way, if you were there 24/7, then all of the food you consumed would be converted into CO2. To offset that, your plants would need to grow in dry mass by an amount close to the amount of food you ate. Obviously, few people are around there reefs 24/7, and there are other sources and sinks, but the point is you'd need very large amounts of plants (like a greenhouse) to substantially reduce CO2 in the air.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Equilibrium between the atmospheric CO2 content in the basement & the tank water CO2 content would be near constant.

The time it takes for CO2 the gas to be hydrated into carbonic acid is around 11 seconds I believe, & from there conversion to carbonates & bi-carbonate is instant.

Figure 1. Relative fraction of carbon dioxide and carbonic acid (black), bicarbonate (white) and carbonate (red) in seawater as a function of pH.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-10/rhf/index.php

Yes, but that 11 second number is greatly misleading. It is way slower than O2 equilibration for that reason, and if aeration were so easy, there would be no diurnal pH change. Most tanks do have a substantial pH change day to night, indication lack of CO2 equilibration.

 

[Gareth elliott]

Randy you just made me want a constant ph meter [emoji23].

My planted is in the same room as my reef and i use ~1 cubic foot of co2 a day . Now want to know the effect this has on my reef ph since i know a lot is gassed off.

 

[Want2BS8ed]

We have somewhat similar setups and problems. High heat and humidity in Central Virginia prevent just opening a window. While my DT is on the first floor, the 125 gallon sump and external MRC Orca Pro I reside in a dedicated fish room in a walkout basement. The majority of the basement is a full wood/metal shop with an indoor electric brewery tucked in the middle.

Intermittent use makes venting the brewery easy using a 10” inline fan, but having the fish room on the same HVAC system was wreaking havoc on tools. You could almost watch rust forming. That was solved by installing an inexpensive (read cheap $15) exhaust fan plugged into my APEX (simply cut the end off an appropriately sized extension cord) and set to come on when the room temperature climbs above the aquarium’s temperature (which varies seasonally using the APEX’s Season Table).

The negative pressure worked well all last summer, drawing cold air from the rest of the basement. On the few occasions when applying a noxious finish, it was easy to shut the fan off and keep fumes out of the fish room, while using the brewery’s exhaust to vent the shop. This summer has been different... a double whammy.

My son is wrapping up his Eagle Project having built a recycling center, shelves and a couple work desks for a local adult learning center. It has been so hot and humid here this year, the finish on the furniture would never have cured with an open window. That also means the fish room has been closed off for a little over a week now. Even running reduced lighting schedules, the aquarium temperature has been running at ~82F (4F higher than it should).

The one thing that has continued to work well (and getting to your original question) is the CO2 scrubber... Probably not what you wanted to hear, but follow along before discounting it as a option.

With that large a skimmer and that much air draw on the Orca skimmer, I started with one of BRS’s jumbo canisters. I was having to swap out media every 3 to 4 week’s. It was ridiculously expensive...

Watching one of BRS’s videos they recommended a valve controlled by an APEX that would bypass the CO2 scrubber when you hit your target pH. That helped some, but did not have quite the impact I had hoped.

The silver bullet came from a thread here on R2R. I drilled and tapped the top of the AVAST Swabbie neck cleaner for two John Guest quick connects and started pulling moist air from the skimmer cup.

The results were dramatic. Such a simple change and I went from replacing media every 3-4 weeks to every 3 months. CO2 scrubbing was now a financially viable option for controlling pH. The system as a whole is much more stable now and chemical additions are focused on maintaining alkalinity. Much easier than trying to maintain pH through a saturated kalk solution - although I do miss watching the stir bar on Avast’s kalk reactor. LOL

In your case, running a semi closed system to control odor, there would be no impact drawing moist air from your skimmer cup. You are essentially recycling air within the skimmer - there is something to be said for the efficiency in that. Oh and you can drop the outside air as well eliminating outside pollution, pesticides, errant bugs and having to swap out carbon.

It is certainly a cheaper alternative to an EVR and after having installed the 10” vent line for the brewery - much easier than drilling holes in Hardieplank!

M

 

[WallyB]

I glanced thru the suggestions, and not sure if somebody has already mentioned this.

Why bother trying to get Fresh air into your whole basement. Like you said, you can't do that anyway.

It is your Tank than needs the Fresher air (if you want PH to go up).

My Co2 filled basement had my PH stuck at around 7.5 (no KALK).

If you have a way, run a FESH AIRLINE directly to Your Skimmer.

I ran a PVC Pipe (To an window, sealed and secured), then connected to a reduction coupler to the Skimmer Air Line Tube.
You must run a thicker diameter hose to allow air to flow freely. It can't be narrow or else drag is too much.

Was easy to do with an unfinished basement. But there are various ways.

That will inject lower CO2 Air via bubbles DIRECTLY into your Tank System.

After hook up I saw results right away. Took a while to stabilize to max value.

PH went from (7.5-7.6) to currently running at (7.87-8.1)

I am still thinking of doing Kalk for various reasons, but I won't need as much for the PH raise.

 

[Insane320]

n you run a line t

I glanced thru the suggestions, and not sure if somebody has already mentioned this.

Why bother trying to get Fresh air into your whole basement. Like you said, you can't do that anyway.

It is your Tank than needs the Fresher air (if you want PH to go up).

My Co2 filled basement had my PH stuck at around 7.5 (no KALK).

If you have a way, run a FESH AIRLINE directly to Your Skimmer.

I ran a PVC Pipe (To an window, sealed and secured), then connected to a reduction coupler to the Skimmer Air Line Tube.
You must run a thicker diameter hose to allow air to flow freely. It can't be narrow or else drag is too much.

Was easy to do with an unfinished basement. But there are various ways.

That will inject lower CO2 Air via bubbles DIRECTLY into your Tank System.

After hook up I saw results right away. Took a while to stabilize to max value.

PH went from (7.5-7.6) to currently running at (7.87-8.1)

I am still thinking of doing Kalk for various reasons, but I won't need as much for the PH raise.[/QUOTE

 

[Insane320]

Can I run a line from the skimmer to the attic with the same results?

 

[Want2BS8ed]

I glanced thru the suggestions, and not sure if somebody has already mentioned this.

Post #7 from the OP:

I have a 3/4 PVC pipe run outside specially for the skimmer and occasionally a bubbler.

Apparently fresh air alone is not meeting the demand.

 

[jessezm]

Following along - this is a great discussion! I also have a basement tank, and saw a noticeable increase in pH when I ran the fresh air line to the skimmer. I have avoided doing anything with the Co2 scrubber thus far because 1) pH levels are acceptable (7.9 - 8.06 daily, and I am adding kalk in my ATO container and running a calcium reactor), and 2) due to the cost and cadence of burning trough co2 media. But plumbing the air for the co2 scrubber through the skimmer cup is something I may definitely try!

Mine system is currently about 100 gallons with a frag tank, sump, and remote pond liner refugium, but I am adding a main display tank on my main floor, so I’m very curious how that will impact things...

 

[Joe Rice]

When installing an air exchanger in a basement you need to watch for humidity issues. Basements are notorious for being damp, and there's a notion that ventilating a basement reduces the humidity by exhausting that damp air and bring in fresh drier air. But what we think of as humidity and what matters with respect to mold and mildew, etc is really relative humidity. Bring fresh WARM air from outside into a cool basement will cool that air and cause the relative humidity to skyrocket.

I run an HRV (an air exchanger that cools the incoming air within the enclosure) and it has a drain line because cooling the incoming air often raises the relative humidity of that air past 100%.

 

[jessezm]

When installing an air exchanger in a basement you need to watch for humidity issues. Basements are notorious for being damp, and there's a notion that ventilating a basement reduces the humidity by exhausting that damp air and bring in fresh drier air. But what we think of as humidity and what matters with respect to mold and mildew, etc is really relative humidity. Bring fresh WARM air from outside into a cool basement will cool that air and cause the relative humidity to skyrocket.

I run an HRV (an air exchanger that cools the incoming air within the enclosure) and it has a drain line because cooling the incoming air often raises the relative humidity of that air past 100%.

Interesting, can you give us a little more information on what you have installed and how? Sorry hope I'm not hijacking here!

 

[Quinnchero]

With that large a skimmer and that much air draw on the Orca skimmer, I started with one of BRS’s jumbo canisters. I was having to swap out media every 3 to 4 week’s. It was ridiculously expensive...

Watching one of BRS’s videos they recommended a valve controlled by an APEX that would bypass the CO2 scrubber when you hit your target pH. That helped some, but did not have quite the impact I had hoped.

The silver bullet came from a thread here on R2R. I drilled and tapped the top of the AVAST Swabbie neck cleaner for two John Guest quick connects and started pulling moist air from the skimmer cup.

The results were dramatic. Such a simple change and I went from replacing media every 3-4 weeks to every 3 months. CO2 scrubbing was now a financially viable option for controlling pH. The system as a whole is much more stable now and chemical additions are focused on maintaining alkalinity. Much easier than trying to maintain pH through a saturated kalk solution - although I do miss watching the stir bar on Avast’s kalk reactor. LOL

Can you explain this solution, or direct me to the posts that go over this solution in detail? I currently add a small amount of water to the bottom of my DIY CO2 scrubber which dramatically increases the effectiveness. But it evaporates daily making it a PITA. Your solution sounds exactly like what I need....I just don't quite understand the layout of what you are suggesting. Are you pulling air through the skimmer cup and then into your CO2 scrubber? Any pics and more detail would be be greatly appreciated.

 

[Want2BS8ed]

Can you explain this solution, or direct me to the posts that go over this solution in detail? I currently add a small amount of water to the bottom of my DIY CO2 scrubber which dramatically increases the effectiveness. But it evaporates daily making it a PITA. Your solution sounds exactly like what I need....I just don't quite understand the layout of what you are suggesting. Are you pulling air through the skimmer cup and then into your CO2 scrubber? Any pics and more detail would be be greatly appreciated.

This may help...

Those are 3/8" lines (including the valve), which are the standard input size for the MRC Orca skimmer. Here is one of the threads as well:

My Experience Raising pH

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?sh...My-Experience-Raising-pH.394826/&share_type=t

If you have more specific questions, just let me know.

M

 

[anit77]

Thanks everyone! I've figured one thing out for sure, I can't continue dosing Kalk like this. It's just going through to much and if I forget to refill the jugs I run out in no time. So without a good Kalk stirrer it's just too much to keep up with. Another variable to the way I've been dosing it is that the 2.5 gallon jug I'm using sits on the floor of the fish room with the lid slightly ajar to allow for displacement. As @Brew12 mentioned, the high co2 levels closer to the floor could reduce to potency of the kalk the longer it sat there, to what extent I don't know without putting a pH probe in there. But its just one more variable I'd just not like to deal with. I knew this was a short term test anyway, and it's not working. But I did learn a few things.

If I dose a larger one time dose Soda Ash in the morning there is the normal pH rise we all see. The difference is, it will not start dropping immediately. For several days now I've dosed it in the morning after feeding and it will climb up .15 to .2ish and stay there through out the photo period. As soon as the lights are at a lower level in the ramp, roughly an hour before they turn off, the pH starts to drop a little. After lights out it starts dropping like a rock. Last night around 7pm it was 8.08 after being 8.06~8.08 since 8:40am. By 8pm it was 8.03, midnight 7.99 and bottomed out at 7.85 this morning at 8:30am. I have done something similar 3 days in a row now after stopping the Kalk. This tells me that the co2 is directly responsible for what I'm seeing. So tonight after testing the big three and adjusting the levels I'm going back to 2part until I can DIY a kalk stirrer out of a TLF unit.

What I like to add is I'm a bit confused with what @Randy Holmes-Farley said in post#23. In the spring when I could keep a window open my pH stayed within 0.05 throughout 24hrs. 8.05~8.10 at night and 8.10~8.15 during the day. Also during that time my Alk was extremely stable at 9.4~9.6dkh. It was also when I saw the most insane growth I've had to date. I have a Walt Disney that nearly doubled in size within 3 to 4 months. Without any other changes to my system since then how could the lower pH and constantly dropping Alk not be tied together?

 

[anit77]

I love all the suggestions too!!! It's nice to see the different ways people address this issue.

As far as a co2 scrubber... I'm not sure how that will work with my skimmer. Mine is a custom 4' MTC MTX, very similar to a Life Reef but it uses a Mazzei Injector. I don't know how well the injector will work in a closed air system.

I'd also like to mention that I have 28sf of surface area in that room between the DT, sump and frag tank. Not to mention my mixing station, 20L coral QT, 32g Brute ATO and a newly installed 30 gallon tank for growing aptasia. All the tanks have good surface agitation. The HVAC for the basement is stand alone and not connected to the rest of the house. I also can control it via wifi and it does a decent job of controlling humidity combined with the exhaust fan. (And Randy. The basement door is nothing more than a cheap hallow interior door that doesn't seal to the floor. I think that the exhaust fan creates a negative pressure down there and air is being pulled from the bottom of the floor above and the stairs are directly adjacent to the fish room.)

I'm really considering replacing the exhaust fan with the ERV unit that @Dennis Cartier posted on the 1st page. I have a 40 gallon Brute that I use as a sump to pump waste water to grade right there and a condensate line could be run into it easily. But I don't see any reference to such a line in the install instructions for the unit. Then there's the Radon gas type fan the @jjoos99 is using. It doesn't address any replacement air though and I'd still be dealing with a negative pressure situation. Ahh... decisions, decisions...

 

[Brew12]

and a newly installed 30 gallon tank for growing aptasia.

 

[anit77]

This may help...

Those are 3/8" lines (including the valve), which are the standard input size for the MRC Orca skimmer. Here is one of the threads as well:

My Experience Raising pH

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?sh...My-Experience-Raising-pH.394826/&share_type=t

If you have more specific questions, just let me know.

M

This is my skimmer. Air does not vent out at the top, it connects to a diy skimmate locker through the hose in the pic.