Rapid RTN, losing colonies...

[Bacon505]

Too much of a good thing can have bad results. 200% dose and 400% back to back dose is alot to take in. That’s 600% total in a short time. And the drastic changes from freaking out making it worse
I read through 4 pages but not a single pictures of the tank or the corals. Sorry, im a picture guy.

 

[RobMcC]

This will be a bit rambling, but here goes.

I had almost the same thing happen after treating a tank with flucanzole. My thoughts were there was a vicious cycle going on, with several impacts combining to bring around catastrophic collapse. Impact one, is that despite the reported fluc MoA being disruption of ergosterol synthesis, it appears to impact some metabolic function of the coral or the algae partnership, as observed by the rapid decrease in uptake of calcium (I've actually used fluc twice, in two different tanks. One treatment turned out okay, the other a disaster; both times cal/alk uptake was negatively impacted). Whether this metabolic impact is direct or indirect, I have no idea, but there are hints in the literature (see paper below for one). Although ergosterol may not be a structural component of coral or zooxanthellae, it may be a vitamin precursor or maybe there may be toxin released from the death of the many protozoa and fungi that make up the biome of our tanks. Anyway, this swing in alk combined with whatever caused the metabolic swing in the first place is not good for coral health.

[nb, there are many fungi in our tanks - some seem beneficial for coral health - here is a free paper on the topic if you are interested (https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fmicb.2014.00228/full). They talk about a wild colony of Acropora hyacinthus that appeared to have a beneficial relationship with a fungi and importantly that the fungi was metabolically important for the health of the acro, so I guess if teh same relationship were sometimes established in our aquaria, then fluc would be bad in some cases (there are three other papers referenced, but I don't have access to the journals).

Impact 2 - bacterial: I had the same second RTN event some time after arresting the first through large water changes. It may have been coincidence, but think the second one was because the fluc may have changed the microbiological population of the tank. It may have been coincidence, but I stopped the RTN by large water changes, installing UV, then turning off the UV and skimmer and adding a variety of bottled bacteria (Microbacter, two different Dr Tims - ecobalance and on-and-only) this seemed to work and the RTN stopped. (nb, the reason I suspect it was bacterial was that stupidly I took frags of some acros I didn't want to lose and put them in one of my other healthy systems. The same RTN then spread rapidly in the previously healthy tank. Could of course have been viral, but then I don't think the 'good' bacteria would have addressed the issue. The same fix worked for both tanks.

impact 3 dose - we often use fluc from pretty dodgy internet sources that probably don't have the best quality control in terms of uniform content, so who knows how much or even what you really dosed to the tank (50%, 100%, 400%, 4000%) or what the protocols posted online really dosed either (I appreciate this isn't an impact, but a confounding issue).

 

[Huskymaniac]

We both had major rtn events at the same time. Knock on wood after losing 30% of my tank it just stopped. The most important thing I did I believe was turning the lights down 30%. Then I believe it was hitting the tank with different bacteria supplements.

 

[ScottB]

We both had major rtn events at the same time. Knock on wood after losing 30% of my tank it just stopped. The most important thing I did I believe was turning the lights down 30%. Then I believe it was hitting the tank with different bacteria supplements.

While I can certainly understand the efficacy of turning down the lights to protect the corals, I also understand that the fluc only performs DURING active photosynthesis, so you are losing the purpose of the treatment.

The one fluc driven RTN event I did witness, I advised to turn down the lights and keep changing water. In the end, all acropora expired, but the bryopsis lived on.

 

[Huskymaniac]

While I can certainly understand the efficacy of turning down the lights to protect the corals, I also understand that the fluc only performs DURING active photosynthesis, so you are losing the purpose of the treatment.

The one fluc driven RTN event I did witness, I advised to turn down the lights and keep changing water. In the end, all acropora expired, but the bryopsis lived on.

If the fluc is responsible for the rtn event I would be so mad I old really care less if there is still bryopsis left in the tank. After a ton of water changes, carbon, polyfilters there is probably a drastic change in overall clarity of the water column and probably higher par output around the coral. Reducing the light will compensate for that. There is no scientific proof but I believe lower light will lead to less metabolic activity in the coral and will give it a chance to recover.

 

[Wunderpus]

There are more and less accurate versions of ICP out there but thats only going to get you a quantitative improvement -- a little more PO4 than you thought, a little less Tin, or whatever. I'm skeptical it will change the overall conclusion.

You might consider testing the bacterial community. Im convinced RTN is the same issue as the White Syndrome described in field research, which has many times been associated with Vibrio in the literature.

I even have an experimental vibrio-specific medication you can try if you want... but IMO the first step is to ask, is the bacterial community in your tank normal or has it been disrupted?

How would I go about testing this? I think you're on to something here...

 

[Wunderpus]

So, I dipped another colony that was RTN’ing into a MASSIVE amount of CoralRx (the coral was going to die anyway) and these little bugs appeared. Not sure if these are “red bugs” as they don’t appear amber in color, more blood red. Only about 4 popped off the coral, doubting this could be enough to cause a massive RTN event, but am I wrong?
Sorry, pics suck, it’s very hard to get a pic of these things with an iPhone...

 

[ScottB]

So, I dipped another colony that was RTN’ing into a MASSIVE amount of CoralRx (the coral was going to die anyway) and these little bugs appeared. Not sure if these are “red bugs” as they don’t appear amber in color, more blood red. Only about 4 popped off the coral, doubting this could be enough to cause a massive RTN event, but am I wrong?
Sorry, pics suck, it’s very hard to get a pic of these things with an iPhone...

Got nothing to help on this but it is not a "Red bug" as they are pale but with a red/orange dot. Sorry the RTN continues.

 

[Wunderpus]

So, RTN continues. We’re at about 25 colonies and frags at this point, maybe 5 left... Almost a full annihilation. With that, I’m really thinking it’s Vibrio/white band disease as I’m losing corals at a few pieces a day, not a giant whiteout at once. Im wondering if somehow the initial fluco dose killed off other micro biome inhabitants and allowed the vibrio to take off?
Either way, I can’t find a good testing for vibrio and treatment... any help on this? I’d like to do what I can to eradicate this from the tank so I can someday slowly repopulate.

 

[92Miata]

I'm on course 2 of fluconazole.

First course was about 3 weeks ago, 800mg in about 35 gallons. (4 pills in a nuvo 40). Saw absolutely nothing.

Used the rest of the bottle last week (6 pills). From 12/24 to 12/28 my alk has gone from 8.1 to 8.7. My Alk is typically nails on 8.1 every single day - so uptake is definitely down. I'm actually seeing some changes in the algae this time. Not seeing any stress in corals.

I'd guess there's some secondary toxin here - something dying algae releases/etc.


OP, how bad was the algae you were treating?

 

[ScottB]

So, RTN continues. We’re at about 25 colonies and frags at this point, maybe 5 left... Almost a full annihilation. With that, I’m really thinking it’s Vibrio/white band disease as I’m losing corals at a few pieces a day, not a giant whiteout at once. Im wondering if somehow the initial fluco dose killed off other micro biome inhabitants and allowed the vibrio to take off?
Either way, I can’t find a good testing for vibrio and treatment... any help on this? I’d like to do what I can to eradicate this from the tank so I can someday slowly repopulate.

This is a different Fluc crash than I am accustomed to seeing. It is typically a full on 24-48 hour and every SPS is dead kinda thing. Complete with that horrible smell.

You could be right about vibrio; here is a long shot for you. I read about it in some bacteria thread. Amoxicillin dipping. Apparently it is a thing. I'll see if I can find the thread.

Fish Aid Antibiotics
Fish Amoxicillin 500mg

Buy it at Chewy.com

 

[ScottB]

Again sorry you are watching this slow crash. I was taking some unexplained losses a month or so ago, but got it under control pretty much now. Turns out my nitrate test kit had expired. What I thought was 10 was actually 50-60.

Here is the link to the RTN amoxicillin thread:

My experiences treating rapid tissue necrosis in multiple SPS species with doxycycline and amoxicillin

Hello all, I'm sure a lot of you who keep SPS have heard about the study and claims that rapid/sudden tissue necrosis (RTN/STN) is being caused (or at least assisted by) vibrio harveyi. If you haven't I suggest giving it a look as it has some pretty interesting information and could potentially...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Sudaien]

I do agree from you, that it seems to be from the fluco. It does seem weird as I have seen countless posts about fluco being "safe" with SPS. But, maybe it killed something else, triggering some event? I'm baffled.

What's weird is, the refugium is working great as nutrients are basically 0. But, bubble algae has gone rampant. I have a foxface in QT to give it a try, too.

The only other thing I can think of is, the KZ additives I've been using have somehow built up a high level of one, or more, elements that has reached toxicity... Hence the ICP test and stopping all additives until I get an update from the ICP results... Driving me nuts....

careul of the foxface , i put one in my tank and he destroyed numerous corals , leathers and zoas ,while i was on vacation ., i don't care how many people put a fox face in a reef tank safely. I'd never add one again, specially after one killed my beautiful fiji leather. just don't want you to stop some coral deaths only to acquire more

 

[Wunderpus]

This is a different Fluc crash than I am accustomed to seeing. It is typically a full on 24-48 hour and every SPS is dead kinda thing. Complete with that horrible smell.

You could be right about vibrio; here is a long shot for you. I read about it in some bacteria thread. Amoxicillin dipping. Apparently it is a thing. I'll see if I can find the thread.

Fish Aid Antibiotics
Fish Amoxicillin 500mg

Buy it at Chewy.com

Scott, thank you... I have contacted a friend of a friend that apparently tests for biological contaminants that way we can properly treat the actual issue, if there is one. It's so weird, I'm losing 1-2 corals a day.... Most events I've always seen are either a total loss in a few days, or something like that. Not 1-2 corals every day for over a month... It's like something is eating them... But, no flatworms or pests to be found... So, it may be bacterial? Who knows.... But i'm literally pulling my hair out trying to figure out what is ACTUALLY happening....

I really can't imagine it's a chemistry issue as I've had 2 ICPs, waiting on another from ATI to come back.... RODI always tests well and is used in all other tanks with Tropic Marin Pro salt in all other systems, too. Those systems have a ton of acropora and other SPS, knock on wood, no issues currently. So, clearly this tank is an isolated issue and there must be a variable that is off in this system solely....

 

[ScottB]

Scott, thank you... I have contacted a friend of a friend that apparently tests for biological contaminants that way we can properly treat the actual issue, if there is one. It's so weird, I'm losing 1-2 corals a day.... Most events I've always seen are either a total loss in a few days, or something like that. Not 1-2 corals every day for over a month... It's like something is eating them... But, no flatworms or pests to be found... So, it may be bacterial? Who knows.... But i'm literally pulling my hair out trying to figure out what is ACTUALLY happening....

I really can't imagine it's a chemistry issue as I've had 2 ICPs, waiting on another from ATI to come back.... RODI always tests well and is used in all other tanks with Tropic Marin Pro salt in all other systems, too. Those systems have a ton of acropora and other SPS, knock on wood, no issues currently. So, clearly this tank is an isolated issue and there must be a variable that is off in this system solely....

How about an update for the New Year? 2021 looking any better?

 

[supernanoguy]

With such a large reef and crowding. Could there be issues with lighting? Can you check par values at all? I have a feeling if it’s starting from the bottom and moving up it could be a lighting issue. Gl.

 

[Wunderpus]

How about an update for the New Year? 2021 looking any better?

No major changes in either direction. I started Vibrant a little over a week ago as I initially was wanting to treat bubble algae in a "safer" way (via fluco). As we know, that didn't work out. So, since the tank is already in shambles I might as well clear up the BA before trying to "restart" things here. An odd note is, 2 of the corals that were showing early stages of RTN have stopped since adding the vibrant.... Maybe coincidence? Maybe the vibrant is outcompeting the predatory bacteria? Any guess is as good as any other guess at this point... Long story short, 3 ICP tests done now (just got ATI back in) and nothing unusual to report whatsoever.

 

[Coronus]

For the sake of keeping things simple.......I did not read all the comments. Just some and the original post. It’s very clear to me what is happening. This event was caused by the treatment and alk swing. Period! Once it starts, it’s almost impossible to stop. Cut your losses and move on. Trying to cut up the colony in the beginning is the best recourse based on my 16 years experience. Sometimes colonies will make it and just brown out. But if RTN is already happening to it. Cut it up and cut well into healthy tissue and toss the rest. Stop dosing everything except Cal/alk/Mag/ K
Return the system to simple. It could take months to get back on track. The red bugs...not sure. But too coincidental with the treatment and alk swing. BTW, I have had colonies RTN over night from an alk swing that was less than .05 DKH.

 

[Wunderpus]

For the sake of keeping things simple.......I did not read all the comments. Just some and the original post. It’s very clear to me what is happening. This event was caused by the treatment and alk swing. Period! Once it starts, it’s almost impossible to stop. Cut your losses and move on. Trying to cut up the colony in the beginning is the best recourse based on my 16 years experience. Sometimes colonies will make it and just brown out. But if RTN is already happening to it. Cut it up and cut well into healthy tissue and toss the rest. Stop dosing everything except Cal/alk/Mag/ K
Return the system to simple. It could take months to get back on track. The red bugs...not sure. But too coincidental with the treatment and alk swing. BTW, I have had colonies RTN over night from an alk swing that was less than .05 DKH.

Hmm, the one-time alk swing still RTN'ing colonies months later? How are you even measuring a 0.05 dKH swing accurately?

 

[Coronus]

I test With a salifert test kit daily at the same time each day.
The alk swing is not the only reason. Its just my opinion. There’s alot going on here including the flucanazole treatment......... if you have colonies RTN for months the alk probably is not stable. It can’t be. How could it be? Growth obviously stopped because Corals that our RTNing are not growing.......So if they’re not growing consumption has stopped or slowed causing swings and unpredictability in stability. There is also articles out that say RTN is contagious....no idea if its true but I always maintain caution. Once things start going south it’s almost impossible to maintain stability in water chemistry.
Cut the colonies effected and move on. Reduce dosing to a minimum after the effected colonies have been cut down and bad tissue cut away and tossed.
Then review the alk consumption by testing 1-2x daily for atleast a week to understand the tanks needs fully. Before dosing begins again.
Stop dosing every thing that not cal/alk/mag/k. Most of the time, a swing where damage can be caused is when alk goes up! When it drops a little its usually ok.
JME