Rapid RTN, losing colonies...

[Wunderpus]

All,

Currently in "panic mode" as I'm losing my favorite corals and some that are extremely pricey... Super bummer currently! Any help you can provide would be BEYOND appreciated... I've run this by some people in the industry that I truly trust, all are stumped....

About a week ago I started a fluconazole treatment on my SPS dominant reef to treat bubble algae. I did the 200% dosage to try it out, before bumping to the 400% some people have used with bubble algae. Almost immediately after, my alk consumption went down about 60%.... This caused my apex to overdose alk, causing a spike from 9.2 dKH to 10.36 dkh. Now, I wouldn't normally assume a swing that's not terribly high would cause masses RTN throughout the system, but the only two factors that changed are the fluco and the alk spike from the fluco (after speaking with many people way smarter than I am, it seems as though fluco has had effects on alk consumption for many).

Immediately I started doing 15% water changes, adding and removing carbon every 24 hours. Corals have still been RTN'ing, fast. I've removed the corals and dipped them to look for pests. There are a few pod-looking critters that came off (pictured below), but no eggs or visible flatworms in the 4 colonies removed (various stages of RTN).

Parameters have been stable, minus the alk swing, daily:
Temp 76.9 PM -> 78 Day Time
Specific gravity: 1.026 (checked with 2 refractometers and Apex salinity probe, all just around 1.026).
Nitrates: < 3 ppm (this has been constant for some time, the refugium has been in many ways too efficient, but I can't imagine this would suddenly cause RTN).
Po4: 0.03 according to multiple Hanna ULN tests with 2 different batches of reagents
Alk (Current) - 9.4 dKH post water changed (mixed salt is TM pro, dKH is ~7) (test with Trident and Hanna)
Cal: 480
Mag: 1280
pH: 7.9 PM, 8.1AM (never had the HIGHEST pH, but it's been this way for years).
ORP has dropped from about 240 prior to about 150 post-RTN event and continues. Correlation in some way?

The only other "changes" in the last month was the addition of Korallen-Zucht Bio-Mate, started about 2 weeks prior to RTN starting, dosed up until RTN was noticed (I stopped all additives).

I have an ICP sent out to test all elements. I have added carbon and added purigen today, poly filter is supposed to arrive today, will add that too. Continuing to do daily water changes until ICP results come in, unless someone suggests otherwise as I still have been having new colonies RTN (1 last night when I got home). The RTN is VERY fast and the tissue is peeling off. The species effective have been A. Tenuis (multiple), A Millepora (multiple) and 1 smooth skin acro. Montipora, LPS, anemones, shrimp, crabs, snails and fish all seem unharmed and fine.

Tested for stray voltage, negative.

What could possibly have caused this? Fluco? Alk swing? Possible my emerald crab has gone rogue (he's big, but could he do THIS much damage so quickly)? Haven't added new corals in about 6 months besides 3 frags I got from Jason Fox, which I'm fairly confident in them being "clean" as about any source can be.

Here are the bugs I found on the dip, but they don't look like AEFW, red bugs or black bugs, to me... They look like copepods. Also, no visible bite marks or eggs on the across pre, during or post-RTN.

 

[Cabinetman]

If you ask me it was whatever was In that chemical you added kill the bubble algae... think about it. Coral has a Symbiotic relationship with algae and you just dumped a pile of poison designed to kill algae. Pretty simple. Next time I’d try a more natural way to control it like a fish or starve it out by beefing up a refugium or algae scrubber. Sorry to hear this though. Orp dropping is probably because of all the dead crap from the corals dying and algae drying dissolved in the water.

 

[Wunderpus]

If you ask me it was whatever was In that chemical you added kill the bubble algae... think about it. Coral has a Symbiotic relationship with algae and you just dumped a pile of poison designed to kill algae. Pretty simple. Next time I’d try a more natural way to control it like a fish or starve it out by beefing up a refugium or algae scrubber. Sorry to hear this though. Orp dropping is probably because of all the dead crap from the corals dying and algae drying dissolved in the water.

I do agree from you, that it seems to be from the fluco. It does seem weird as I have seen countless posts about fluco being "safe" with SPS. But, maybe it killed something else, triggering some event? I'm baffled.

What's weird is, the refugium is working great as nutrients are basically 0. But, bubble algae has gone rampant. I have a foxface in QT to give it a try, too.

The only other thing I can think of is, the KZ additives I've been using have somehow built up a high level of one, or more, elements that has reached toxicity... Hence the ICP test and stopping all additives until I get an update from the ICP results... Driving me nuts....

 

[excell007]

Sorry for your lost. I think I have read something in reefcentral a long time ago that a guy lost all SPS and LPS after using this. He's not blaming the drug because a lot of reefers are saying this does not affect zooxanthellae , but he knows something went wrong. Zooxanthellae is a kind of algae and fluconazole kills algae, maybe 200% and 400% dosage back to back is too much for them. This is just a guess, I have not use this product so I am not a credible source.

 

[Macdaddynick1]

I also had some issues adding flucanizole, my alk went up and I got burnt tips, and lost a few pieces. IMO what you did wrong is added a bunch of carbon on top of increased alk, which cleared out your water, likely allowing more light in. Increased alk usually causes issues when nutrients are low and the light is strong. If I were you I would feed more, and dose some aminos and increase the feeding, but don’t overdo it. Alternatively, dose a bit of nitrates and increase feeding. This is what I did and it helped a lot. Also I would stop running carbon for now.

 

[Charlie’s Frags]

I lost my 2 favorite Tenuis in July 2019 after a 50% dose of flucozanole. I’ll never use that stuff again

 

[Wunderpus]

I also had some issues adding flucanizole, my alk went up and I got burnt tips, and lost a few pieces. IMO what you did wrong is added a bunch of carbon on top of increased alk, which cleared out your water, likely allowing more light in. Increased alk usually causes issues when nutrients are low and the light is strong. If I were you I would feed more, and dose some aminos and increase the feeding, but don’t overdo it. Alternatively, dose a bit of nitrates and increase feeding. This is what I did and it helped a lot. Also I would stop running carbon for now.

Interesting... I only added the carbon post RTN starting, after 2 colonies died (1 day after first death). So, I don't think the carbon -> clarity = more light is necessarily applicable, but it may not have helped...

I'm keeping aminos and food up, but that's it... No other additives until ICP is back....

 

[Wunderpus]

I lost my 2 favorite Tenuis in July 2019 after a 50% dose of flucozanole. I’ll never use that stuff again

All, we need to post this stuff in the fluco thread as I don't see any of these horror stories, but they appear to exist!

 

[rlman41299]

I have had my share of bubble algae but dealt with it naturally. I used a hose and scraped the bubble algae and sucked them down the sump with a filter sock at the end of the hose. Filtered the bubble algae and tossed them.

 

[Macdaddynick1]

Interesting... I only added the carbon post RTN starting, after 2 colonies died (1 day after first death). So, I don't think the carbon -> clarity = more light is necessarily applicable, but it may not have helped...

I'm keeping aminos and food up, but that's it... No other additives until ICP is back....

Yeah, what I meant to say is that you made things worse with a bunch of carbon, but feeding helped me stop loosing pieces. Good luck.

 

[Wunderpus]

Yeah, what I meant to say is that you made things worse with a bunch of carbon, but feeding helped me stop loosing pieces. Good luck.

I feel ya... And tha'ts a possibility. I suppose I had to weigh that risk vs. a potential toxin in thee system. But I do see your point, too.

 

[Wunderpus]

Well, i'm starting to think I've overdosed my tank with trace elements due to the KZ stuff... I use the TM All-For-Reef, which contains trace elements, in conjunction with the KZ stuff. I looked at their product guide, which is iffy at best, and it said to not use some of them with their color system (trace element system). I'm thinking I likely overdosed iron or copper from doing the All-For-Reef with Pohl's Xtra Amino Acids... I imagine Pohl's Extra has iron in it, as my chaeto and nuisance algae went NUTS before the RTN started. I am waiting on my ICP, but that seems to make sense as algaes grow well from iron, and an overdose likely causes RTN in SPS....

Thoughts on this?

 

[Marine Life]

All,

Currently in "panic mode" as I'm losing my favorite corals and some that are extremely pricey... Super bummer currently! Any help you can provide would be BEYOND appreciated... I've run this by some people in the industry that I truly trust, all are stumped....

About a week ago I started a fluconazole treatment on my SPS dominant reef to treat bubble algae. I did the 200% dosage to try it out, before bumping to the 400% some people have used with bubble algae. Almost immediately after, my alk consumption went down about 60%.... This caused my apex to overdose alk, causing a spike from 9.2 dKH to 10.36 dkh. Now, I wouldn't normally assume a swing that's not terribly high would cause masses RTN throughout the system, but the only two factors that changed are the fluco and the alk spike from the fluco (after speaking with many people way smarter than I am, it seems as though fluco has had effects on alk consumption for many).

Immediately I started doing 15% water changes, adding and removing carbon every 24 hours. Corals have still been RTN'ing, fast. I've removed the corals and dipped them to look for pests. There are a few pod-looking critters that came off (pictured below), but no eggs or visible flatworms in the 4 colonies removed (various stages of RTN).

Parameters have been stable, minus the alk swing, daily:
Temp 76.9 PM -> 78 Day Time
Specific gravity: 1.026 (checked with 2 refractometers and Apex salinity probe, all just around 1.026).
Nitrates: < 3 ppm (this has been constant for some time, the refugium has been in many ways too efficient, but I can't imagine this would suddenly cause RTN).
Po4: 0.03 according to multiple Hanna ULN tests with 2 different batches of reagents
Alk (Current) - 9.4 dKH post water changed (mixed salt is TM pro, dKH is ~7) (test with Trident and Hanna)
Cal: 480
Mag: 1280
pH: 7.9 PM, 8.1AM (never had the HIGHEST pH, but it's been this way for years).
ORP has dropped from about 240 prior to about 150 post-RTN event and continues. Correlation in some way?

The only other "changes" in the last month was the addition of Korallen-Zucht Bio-Mate, started about 2 weeks prior to RTN starting, dosed up until RTN was noticed (I stopped all additives).

I have an ICP sent out to test all elements. I have added carbon and added purigen today, poly filter is supposed to arrive today, will add that too. Continuing to do daily water changes until ICP results come in, unless someone suggests otherwise as I still have been having new colonies RTN (1 last night when I got home). The RTN is VERY fast and the tissue is peeling off. The species effective have been A. Tenuis (multiple), A Millepora (multiple) and 1 smooth skin acro. Montipora, LPS, anemones, shrimp, crabs, snails and fish all seem unharmed and fine.

Tested for stray voltage, negative.

What could possibly have caused this? Fluco? Alk swing? Possible my emerald crab has gone rogue (he's big, but could he do THIS much damage so quickly)? Haven't added new corals in about 6 months besides 3 frags I got from Jason Fox, which I'm fairly confident in them being "clean" as about any source can be.

Here are the bugs I found on the dip, but they don't look like AEFW, red bugs or black bugs, to me... They look like copepods. Also, no visible bite marks or eggs on the across pre, during or post-RTN.

I know exactly what happened I have used Fluconazole in the past and the fact that it kills all that bubble algae and other algae such as hair algae all in the matter of a week or even a few days. All of the nutrients that are bonded into the Algae will be released and cause major swings in nutrients which Happened to me And I lost a few colonies myself.

 

[uhupong]

I also had some issues adding flucanizole, my alk went up and I got burnt tips, and lost a few pieces. IMO what you did wrong is added a bunch of carbon on top of increased alk, which cleared out your water, likely allowing more light in. Increased alk usually causes issues when nutrients are low and the light is strong. If I were you I would feed more, and dose some aminos and increase the feeding, but don’t overdo it. Alternatively, dose a bit of nitrates and increase feeding. This is what I did and it helped a lot. Also I would stop running carbon for now.

Second this.

 

[ScottB]

I have used fluc a few times with great success. My LFS has used it 100 times with great success against bryopsis specifically. GHA and other not so much.

All that said, 1 in 20 times -- maybe 1 in 50 times -- it completely nukes an SPS tank. My LFS sent me out to a customer tank that melted within 48 hours. Every single SPS was RTN. Only bits that were shaded had any flesh at all left and that died later.

Hobby tests of base elements and nutrients were all nominal. Alk was slightly elevated because he didn't shut the doser off but not enough to nuke the tank. ICP results were also nominal.

My pet theory: fluconazole is an anti-fungal medication. We all have several types of fungus in our systems. But some select few have a fungus that goes nuclear when hit with this medication.

 

[bobnicaragua]

Yep, I've been there. It sucks watching your acros die! Hold it steady and hold your breath..

I haven't had any bubble algae since adding my foxface. Good luck!

 

[Wunderpus]

After talking with MANY folks in the industry, there seems to be an undeniable common factor with fluconazole and alkalinity uptake. Somehow the alkalinity consumption is DRASTICALLY lowered (seems to range 30-70% depending on the user) for about the first 3 days post-addition of fluco.

I think the theory of excess nutrients being release is POSSIBLE, however, this RTN happened sub-24 hours of fluco addition, which I don't believe is enough time for massive die-off of the algae. Possible, but I'm not sure that's the issue here.

 

[excell007]

I think the lowered alkalanity consumption is due to the corals dying and therefore not consuming any KH. Zooxanthelae is also a kind of an algae and could be affected by 400% fluco dosage, afterall fluco is an algaecide. This is just a guess, trying to make sennse of why healthy colonies wil suddenly RTN.

 

[Wunderpus]

I think the lowered alkalanity consumption is due to the corals dying and therefore not consuming any KH. Zooxanthelae is also a kind of an algae and could be affected by 400% fluco dosage, afterall fluco is an algaecide. This is just a guess, trying to make sennse of why healthy colonies wil suddenly RTN.

Fluconazole is technically an anti-fungal, as it is an ergosterol synthesis inhibitor. Essentially, Fluconazole blocks the enzymatic pathway for the production of ergosterol. Ergosterol is essential for maintaining the cell wall integrity of plants. Ergosterol is a sterol found in cell membranes of fungi and protozoa, serving many of the same functions that cholesterol serves in animal cells. Possibly it impacts the health of zooxanthellae in a similar manner.

So, your theory is entirely possible that it in some way affects the zooxanthellae within the corals, too. I suppose this is relatively unknown still. However, I do find it odd some folks have NO issues and some have horrific issues... You'd expect it to be more consistent.

 

[ScottB]

Fluconazole is technically an anti-fungal, as it is an ergosterol synthesis inhibitor. Essentially, Fluconazole blocks the enzymatic pathway for the production of ergosterol. Ergosterol is essential for maintaining the cell wall integrity of plants. Ergosterol is a sterol found in cell membranes of fungi and protozoa, serving many of the same functions that cholesterol serves in animal cells. Possibly it impacts the health of zooxanthellae in a similar manner.

So, your theory is entirely possible that it in some way affects the zooxanthellae within the corals, too. I suppose this is relatively unknown still. However, I do find it odd some folks have NO issues and some have horrific issues... You'd expect it to be more consistent.

That is a solid clarification of the physical process by which this works. I believe it was @Jose Mayo who first figured this all out. Here is a piece of his writing from the main "Bryopsis Cure:" thread in post #4465.

"I reported the observation in the IPAq and began to research on the subject in order to understand why FLUCONAZOL had this effect and, not without some effort, I discovered that some PRIMITIVE ALGAE, among them Chlorophytes (glass algae), Derbésia , Bryopsis, Caulerpa, Codó, Halimeda and Ulva lactuca (sea lettuce), contained in their cell walls a structural lipid (fat) called ERGOSTEROL, also present in the cell walls of ALL FUNGI and which is precisely the target of attack of FLUCONAZOL , whose mechanism of action is, precisely, to block the enzymes that work in the elaboration of this lipid. Without ERGOSTEROL, the cell wall of the species containing it is weakened, and the organism, thus having diminished defenses, yields to the environment and dies. In ANIMALS IN GENERAL, from protozoan to whale, the predominant mebran lipid is CHOLESTEROL and that FLUCONAZOL does not block. The structural lipid of ZOOXANTHELAS is DINOSTEROL, which is also not blocked by FLUCONAZOL."

I feel like in these rare RTN events that it is an INDIRECT poisoning of the water. The fluconazole attacks something else in the system that in turn releases the toxin. Most of us don't have any or enough of that particular organism (fungi?) present in our systems to cause a reaction. But if you do it is game over.

If you read through a few hundred posts in that thread you will anecdotally discover 1:20 to 1:50 cases have a catastrophic outcome. I have not been able to discern any pattern to it. Maybe @Jose Mayo can speculate for us what we should be looking for to reduce the risk of such an outcome.