Rapid RTN, losing colonies...

[Wunderpus]

That is a solid clarification of the physical process by which this works. I believe it was @Jose Mayo who first figured this all out. Here is a piece of his writing from the main "Bryopsis Cure:" thread in post #4465.

"I reported the observation in the IPAq and began to research on the subject in order to understand why FLUCONAZOL had this effect and, not without some effort, I discovered that some PRIMITIVE ALGAE, among them Chlorophytes (glass algae), Derbésia , Bryopsis, Caulerpa, Codó, Halimeda and Ulva lactuca (sea lettuce), contained in their cell walls a structural lipid (fat) called ERGOSTEROL, also present in the cell walls of ALL FUNGI and which is precisely the target of attack of FLUCONAZOL , whose mechanism of action is, precisely, to block the enzymes that work in the elaboration of this lipid. Without ERGOSTEROL, the cell wall of the species containing it is weakened, and the organism, thus having diminished defenses, yields to the environment and dies. In ANIMALS IN GENERAL, from protozoan to whale, the predominant mebran lipid is CHOLESTEROL and that FLUCONAZOL does not block. The structural lipid of ZOOXANTHELAS is DINOSTEROL, which is also not blocked by FLUCONAZOL."

I feel like in these rare RTN events that it is an INDIRECT poisoning of the water. The fluconazole attacks something else in the system that in turn releases the toxin. Most of us don't have any or enough of that particular organism (fungi?) present in our systems to cause a reaction. But if you do it is game over.

If you read through a few hundred posts in that thread you will anecdotally discover 1:20 to 1:50 cases have a catastrophic outcome. I have not been able to discern any pattern to it. Maybe @Jose Mayo can speculate for us what we should be looking for to reduce the risk of such an outcome.

I agree, there are MOSTLY success stories... However I just had a fellow reefer reach out to me yesterday with the same experience, different fluco brand, total annihilation... So, there must be SOMETHING that the fluco is interacting with, or a chain reaction it is setting off, that can occasionally cause a disaster...

I wish I knew of a way to mitigate this risk, but elements such as carbon would obviously remove the fluco at the same rate as the potential "toxins" as you're possible eluding to? Possibly things like zoas/palys release palytoxin or some other bacteria/fungus is impacted by the fluco leading to a poisoning event... The RTN ALMOST looked like a bacterial infection in the rate that it spread and the exponential growth from one obvious starting point. The tissue would fall off, about the size of a grain of rice, followed by massive exponential growth over the whole coral in a matter of about two hours... It was CRAZY fast.

After adding carbon, polyfilter, cuprisorb and purigen plus doing 25% water changes every day, the RTN seemed to halt after about 4 days of the fluco administration. Now, there are a few corals with small dead spots, but the necrosis seems to have halted.

As a side-note, the Brightwell Restor does seem to help with the tissue recovery thus far, as I'm already seeing some visible progress in the damaged colonies that is slower than standard visible regrowth would be. Take that for what it is, but it's definitely not hurting.

 

[ScottB]

I agree, there are MOSTLY success stories... However I just had a fellow reefer reach out to me yesterday with the same experience, different fluco brand, total annihilation... So, there must be SOMETHING that the fluco is interacting with, or a chain reaction it is setting off, that can occasionally cause a disaster...

I wish I knew of a way to mitigate this risk, but elements such as carbon would obviously remove the fluco at the same rate as the potential "toxins" as you're possible eluding to? Possibly things like zoas/palys release palytoxin or some other bacteria/fungus is impacted by the fluco leading to a poisoning event... The RTN ALMOST looked like a bacterial infection in the rate that it spread and the exponential growth from one obvious starting point. The tissue would fall off, about the size of a grain of rice, followed by massive exponential growth over the whole coral in a matter of about two hours... It was CRAZY fast.

After adding carbon, polyfilter, cuprisorb and purigen plus doing 25% water changes every day, the RTN seemed to halt after about 4 days of the fluco administration. Now, there are a few corals with small dead spots, but the necrosis seems to have halted.

As a side-note, the Brightwell Restor does seem to help with the tissue recovery thus far, as I'm already seeing some visible progress in the damaged colonies that is slower than standard visible regrowth would be. Take that for what it is, but it's definitely not hurting.

I witnessed what you are describing. By the time I got there (48 hrs post treatment) it was already completely destroyed. LPS failed as well. And my LFS has used the stuff a 100 times without issue. I've done a lot of reading but could not pick up a pattern. I follow a handful of high end acro keepers here and they won't touch the stuff. But if you get Bryopsis, you are danged if you don't use it too.

Glad to hear you have arrested the situation.

 

[Wunderpus]

I witnessed what you are describing. By the time I got there (48 hrs post treatment) it was already completely destroyed. LPS failed as well. And my LFS has used the stuff a 100 times without issue. I've done a lot of reading but could not pick up a pattern. I follow a handful of high end acro keepers here and they won't touch the stuff. But if you get Bryopsis, you are danged if you don't use it too.

Glad to hear you have arrested the situation.

In a sense I have stopped it... The nuisance algae still persists, which is problematic. Obviously not AS problematic as massive RTN... Hoping manual removal, increased clean up crew and increased refugium light time will help to outcompete the nuisance algae.... The tank is running at ULN so the nuisance algae is clearly taking all the nutrients out currently... Which is a problem for healing damaged corals, of course... Argh!

 

[Huskymaniac]

Joining the thread. Going through a rtn issue right now. RIP tank.

 

[Wunderpus]

Joining the thread. Going through a rtn issue right now. RIP tank.

Do 20% water changes every day, and add carbon, if possible, too. That stopped my RTN in about 2 days... Is yours from Fluco?

 

[Huskymaniac]

Do 20% water changes every day, and add carbon, if possible, too. That stopped my RTN in about 2 days... Is yours from Fluco?

Alk swing

 

[Wunderpus]

Alk swing

Ah, I’m sorry to hear. Such a bummer, that’s likely the secondary cause of my issue.... Sucks... were you able to clip off some of the unaffected tissue for possibly regrowing?

 

[Huskymaniac]

Ah, I’m sorry to hear. Such a bummer, that’s likely the secondary cause of my issue.... Sucks... were you able to clip off some of the unaffected tissue for possibly regrowing?

Possibly. Whatever I have been clipping melts as well. Added lugols to my arsenal.

 

[Charlie’s Frags]

Alk swing

Didn’t you have a nopox over dose as well?

 

[Huskymaniac]

Didn’t you have a nopox over dose as well?

yes sir nothing ever come of it though. Was over a month ago. It actually made the tank look great.

 

[jda]

This is just anecdotal, but 12 out of 12 people who used Fluconazlone in their tanks for algae had catastrophic effects on their stonies... some worse than others ranging from a few pieces lost to complete wipeouts. While not everybody, I feel that it is more than one in twenty or fifty that have issues. I really don't care and do not pay attention to mixed tank results... and we are in the SPS forum.

 

[Wunderpus]

This is just anecdotal, but 12 out of 12 people who used Fluconazlone in their tanks for algae had catastrophic effects on their stonies... some worse than others ranging from a few pieces lost to complete wipeouts. While not everybody, I feel that it is more than one in twenty or fifty that have issues. I really don't care and do not pay attention to mixed tank results... and we are in the SPS forum.

I have spoken to many folks that are either long term hobbyists or coral propagators... ALL of them said they have heard many of many horrors stories from Fluco usage and SPS losses.

The main question here is “why?”

 

[ScottB]

This is just anecdotal, but 12 out of 12 people who used Fluconazlone in their tanks for algae had catastrophic effects on their stonies... some worse than others ranging from a few pieces lost to complete wipeouts. While not everybody, I feel that it is more than one in twenty or fifty that have issues. I really don't care and do not pay attention to mixed tank results... and we are in the SPS forum.

This shocks me, but I won't dispute it at all. Instead, maybe we should drill down a bit to find some commonality across those 12. In the many many pages of the main Bryopsis/fluconazole I only came across a dozen or two wipeouts which was a very small fraction of the posters. (Maybe there is a denial bias like in the last few polling cycles, idk)

I am going to guess your dozen examples are stick lovers, correct? So what is common to stick keepers that might be different from softy and mixed reef keepers? Lets just throw some stuff at the wall and see if we can pick a pattern.
Stronger light
Stronger flow
Well aged biome
Dead steady nutrients & ALK
CaRx?
Interceptor(?)
Refugium(?)

Some combination of these and other factors allows us to keep acropora. What other life forms does this combination support that is different or outsized?

It is my speculation (repeating myself, I know) that SPS death is a second derivative consequence of fluconazole. Some tanks have built a large population of some algae or fungus or sponge that goes nuclear when hit with fluc. Other tanks have little or none.

I have spoken to many folks that are either long term hobbyists or coral propagators... ALL of them said they have heard many of many horrors stories from Fluco usage and SPS losses.

The main question here is “why?”

 

[dieselkeeper]

From I've seen on forums, is that it sounds like its all or nothing. Having it all, SPS with bubble algae. Or nothing, no SPS without bubble algae. I would be careful with water changes. As you probably know. Zero nitrates and phosphates can cause other problems like dino.

I feel your pain. I just been thru a massive coral die off. Mine was from rusty magnets from a feed clip and a frag rack. I wish you the best.

 

[jda]

Instead, maybe we should drill down a bit to find some commonality across those 12.

They were all locals and I have no doubt that they shared techniques and probably even had a lot of the same corals. Whatever it was, I think that it is important to note that problems with Fluc are more than just edge cases, but I don't know what the common denominator is.

 

[Wunderpus]

The only unusual aspect I noticed is the RTN origin point on the corals was always facing the bright light source. So, the outer side of one coral that the Radion disc clearly hits would die first, followed by the whole colony. This is similar to flucos action with bubble algae, as the high light exposure pieces die faster. There may be a similarity here.

 

[Wunderpus]

Also, it wasn’t particularly species specific... I lost a walt Disney, RMF acid trip milli, and unknown tort, a. valida, cherry corals needle in a haystack, SC Orange passion and a few others. So, it clearly hit all types of acropora. All other corals were unharmed except a montipora spongodes had a few bleaching spots show, but has been recovering.

 

[ScottB]

Also, it wasn’t particularly species specific... I lost a walt Disney, RMF acid trip milli, and unknown tort, a. valida, cherry corals needle in a haystack, SC Orange passion and a few others. So, it clearly hit all types of acropora. All other corals were unharmed except a montipora spongodes had a few bleaching spots show, but has been recovering.

Did any acropora survive?

 

[Wunderpus]

Did any acropora survive?

Hey there! Yes, many did and some have stopped RTN'ing since all of the remedies I performed... Unfortunately, I have had issues with ICP testing (see this thread reef2reef.com/threads/icp-analysis-a-warning.780639/) so I didn't know if there were any measurable issues until I got my Triton tests back. With that, nothing came back out of whack on Triton. It was likely the fluco...

 

[ScottB]

Hey there! Yes, many did and some have stopped RTN'ing since all of the remedies I performed... Unfortunately, I have had issues with ICP testing (see this thread reef2reef.com/threads/icp-analysis-a-warning.780639/) so I didn't know if there were any measurable issues until I got my Triton tests back. With that, nothing came back out of whack on Triton. It was likely the fluco...

Fluc strikes again. So sorry; that was a costly set of mortalities you listed there. Glad you arrested the situation.

@jda make that 13 now.