Ha, I didn’t even post most of what I lost. I’m honestly mostly bummed about the large/older colonies and then the stuff that was “wild” that I can’t replace. For the WD, ASD milli etc I can always buy another piece....
Rapid RTN, losing colonies...
- Thread starter Wunderpus
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All,
I'm re-upping this thread as I woke up to another major RTN event. No numbers are out of whack, no noticeable swings in any elements, temp or salinity... This is identical to what happened a few weeks back, all the tissue is just peeling off at a rapid rate... I'm ordering another ICP (ATI this time) to see if I can find SOMETHING! However, the recent Triton and ICP-Analysis both did not identify any noticeable issues about 2 weeks ago, and nothing has changed after that. Then, boom, woke up to another RTN event...
What could cause such a major event to occur almost instantly? I can't even think of any issues that I haven't already tackled, losing my mind...
I'm re-upping this thread as I woke up to another major RTN event. No numbers are out of whack, no noticeable swings in any elements, temp or salinity... This is identical to what happened a few weeks back, all the tissue is just peeling off at a rapid rate... I'm ordering another ICP (ATI this time) to see if I can find SOMETHING! However, the recent Triton and ICP-Analysis both did not identify any noticeable issues about 2 weeks ago, and nothing has changed after that. Then, boom, woke up to another RTN event...
What could cause such a major event to occur almost instantly? I can't even think of any issues that I haven't already tackled, losing my mind...
schuby
Valuable Member
What are your current numbers?
Based on your first set of numbers, you're running high Alk with extremely low PO4. That is a risky place to run an SPS tank. Were you previously trying to starve the bubble algae out before the Fluco treatment, or is that where you've successfully run your SPS tank for many years? (I don't know how old your tank is as you haven't said.)
Based on your first set of numbers, you're running high Alk with extremely low PO4. That is a risky place to run an SPS tank. Were you previously trying to starve the bubble algae out before the Fluco treatment, or is that where you've successfully run your SPS tank for many years? (I don't know how old your tank is as you haven't said.)
This is a good theory... My alk is at 9.12dkh currently, just tested po4 its 0.07ppm.
I was not trying to starve out the bubble algae, not directly at least. I was using the refugium at full force to try and outcompete the BA, which wasn't all that effective in the first place.
This tank is 2 years old, it's more or less always been at these numbers, with no issues. I did stop KZ Pohl's Xtra completely and cut the amino acid additive by 50% when the bubble algae blew up, thinking it would stop fueling it. Possibly those nutrients were keeping the SPS afloat?
Now, with that all, why do you think it would suddenly cause a massive die-off? you'd like a colony may bleach here and there, but not a massive event at night... It's not bleaching, either, it's actual tissue necrosis... The suddenness of the deaths is what's concerning to me as I can't identify what seems to be causing the massive events.... IME, for what it's worth, the SPS will normally start to fade away when deprived of nutrients, not completely all die off overnight. Now, of course, I may be wrong....
Sorry to hear it is happening again.
I could be mixing up threads, but the initial RTN -- wasn't that a fluconazole event?
If so, what have been your fluc export methods?
So, it SEEMS correlated with the fluco, as it happened ~12 hours post fluc addition. Now, of course coincidences do happen, so who knows?
Either way, I did 15% water changes every day for 2 weeks, added carbon, polyfilter, purigen and cuprisorb... It's weird that the event just occurred again with no changes noticeable.
An observation as I'm watching the RTN'ing- It appears to start at the base then works its way up the colony. Not sure if this information is relevant, but all the acros seem to have the flesh peel off the base followed by the necrosis moving up the whole colony. I was able to save 1 acro last time by cutting off a tip that wasn't necrotizing yet, so I will try that with the few I have here that are just at the base currently.
Also, the corals in the higher flow areas seem more affected, but that may be just the flow blowing off the dead flesh faster.
Doing a 20% water change today, added fresh carbon and a new polyfilter.... ICP tests are en route... I really wish I could catch what's happening here. All other corals (LPS and montipora) are not affected in any way. Inverts are fine, fish are fine. So, doubting it's a heavy metal, but who knows at this point... Frustrating and heart breaking.
Greg Hiller
New Member
I"ve had Bryopsis and Valonia in my SPS dominated system for many, many years. There have been times when it's been a problem, but I've never resorted to chemicals for algae control...don't think I would. I've found (as many have) that a good supply of long spined urchins will control both forms of algae very effectively and are fun to watch. One of mine spawned last night. The urchins will live for many, many years and some are really beautiful. Yes, they knock stuff over, so you need to beef up your rock structure and secure any tiny frags. I also post tiny urchins on my powerhead and they keep them clean. They stay in place for many months.
OK so the fluc is gone for sure. Almost wonder if now the water is getting stripped of something they need with all those absorbents now.
I honestly have no idea... It's possible but the SUDDEN spike in RTN-related deaths is alarming and doesn't SEEM like a nutrient deficiency to me... Lost another mille colony today.... Virtually 90% of my acros have died in these two events, and I have literally NO idea why...
The ONLY change that I can recall is adding KZ CyanoClean about 2-3 days before the RTN started this time. I had a bit of cyano from the fluco killing off other algae. It was nothing crazy, but a bit that I took a seemingly smooth path to eliminate it...
I suppose now it would be worth the risk of running Vibrant as I've lost most of the SPS and LPS seem relatively unharmed by vibrant from what I've seen... So I can at least nuke the BA in this tank... The problem is, what IS killing this SPS? I don't want to never be able to keep acros in this tank for some unknown reason.... It's a real bummer to have NO idea what's doing it...
Is there a better way to test water than the hobby grade ICPs? I'd pay the cost of a more precise lab if possible, I've already lost like $5k+ in acros here, a few more bucks is negligible at this point.
I'd love to see some more theories from our seasoned SPS keepers if possible...
Again really sorry to hear of all these losses and I know that not knowing why makes it even worse. I recently went through a tough RTN/STN stretch but it was very species specific. And I still don't have a firm answer as to what happened.
I'll give you a few speculation points you can consider -- and sorry if I may be repeating myself.
1) Fluconazole driven acropora RTN is a thing. Several professional acropora keepers won't touch the stuff. It is not as much of a Black Swan event as I previously thought. I have seen countless positive outcomes, but crashes do happen.
2) Round 2 RTN: You pulled several small levers at around the same time to halt the first event and correct the algae/cyano transition. Poly pad, GAC, Sorb, etc. Taken together -- and in an already compromised state of health -- it may have been enough stress.
2b) Even water changes can add some stress. I run dKH around 8.5 but my salt mixes to 10.5. When I really needed to go through some large WCs, I struggled a bit to keep my ALK stable, using muriatic acid to knock down the dKH. It was also hard to keep pH at a decent level, even when I got the dKH corrected.
3) ICP/other tests: I am not familiar with any exceptional ICP testing. Triton and ATI seem to enjoy the best reputation (and pricing power) but otherwise they all seem the same to me. This could also be a reach, but I hear some talk about bad bacteria being behind some mass RTN events. Excess Vibrio types. You could check into aquabiomics for a bacteria evaluation. @AquaBiomics
4) Triple check your TDS. Do you have chloramines in your water source?
2) Round 2 RTN: You pulled several small levers at around the same time to halt the first event and correct the algae/cyano transition. Poly pad, GAC, Sorb, etc. Taken together -- and in an already compromised state of health -- it may have been enough stress.
^This seems totally possible...
TDS is 0, just replaced the DI resins. Also, the other tanks that are unharmed are running the same exact salt and water (all on the same AWC setup).
I suppose I'm just struggling to understand why it's been one massive event both times... Not one colony here and there, but the MAJORITY of colonies all within 12 hours... I checked for stray voltage, too, nothing...
I don't think there is any rust as the heavy metals can't be detected and realistically could only come from the MP40s, and I looked them over...
On another note, both times the RTN events have occurred, ORP drops considerably. Not sure if this is correlation or causation, just trying to identify ANYTHING that may offer us a clue as to what is going on... There have no been any detectable drops in Alk, Cal or Mag throughout the process, either. Po4 remains at about 0.03ppm, no3 is around 2ppm at most (barely detectable).
Overall it's such a bummer as I do all I can to keep these tanks healthy, and something that I clearly do not know about is killing the stuff I have spent a ton of time and effort into growing... Bummer! I'm really hoping the ATI ICP test may have some insight, as the other two tests provided no obvious clues... You'd think one of the two would detect heavy metals to some degree. Also, the polyfilter doesn't change color, nor does the curprisorb...
I'm too scared to move the surviving colonies into one of the healthy tanks in fear there is some bacteria or other pest/parasite that I can't see with my own eyes that I will introduce to the other systems.... Doing a COVID-esque quarantine on this tank for the foreseeable future.
^This seems totally possible...
TDS is 0, just replaced the DI resins. Also, the other tanks that are unharmed are running the same exact salt and water (all on the same AWC setup).
I suppose I'm just struggling to understand why it's been one massive event both times... Not one colony here and there, but the MAJORITY of colonies all within 12 hours... I checked for stray voltage, too, nothing...
I don't think there is any rust as the heavy metals can't be detected and realistically could only come from the MP40s, and I looked them over...
On another note, both times the RTN events have occurred, ORP drops considerably. Not sure if this is correlation or causation, just trying to identify ANYTHING that may offer us a clue as to what is going on... There have no been any detectable drops in Alk, Cal or Mag throughout the process, either. Po4 remains at about 0.03ppm, no3 is around 2ppm at most (barely detectable).
Overall it's such a bummer as I do all I can to keep these tanks healthy, and something that I clearly do not know about is killing the stuff I have spent a ton of time and effort into growing... Bummer! I'm really hoping the ATI ICP test may have some insight, as the other two tests provided no obvious clues... You'd think one of the two would detect heavy metals to some degree. Also, the polyfilter doesn't change color, nor does the curprisorb...
I'm too scared to move the surviving colonies into one of the healthy tanks in fear there is some bacteria or other pest/parasite that I can't see with my own eyes that I will introduce to the other systems.... Doing a COVID-esque quarantine on this tank for the foreseeable future.
Hmmm. Actually it is good you have other systems as that might help narrow things down a bit (like the TDS). Might also offer a contrast for comparing bacterial composition via aquabiomics. It would still be tough to discern cause from effect though, unless you had a time series of data to see before, during, after.
I can't think of a pest that would do this; it would be counterproductive to their need to feed on the tissue.
Sometimes we just never get tot the bottom of these RTN events. But usually in a mass event some theory seems plausible enough when you stack the evidence and account for the time it takes for the stress event to show up.
Well, I found these little guys crawling around last night... Any ID on these things? They’re hard and crunchy, almost have the color of coraline in person....
Look up stomella snail and see if that fits.
Whatever it is, limpet my guess, or chiton. Not a concern, algae eater. These are found as reef matures. I have a stomatella and limpet boom, I welcome as being a healthy sign of maturity.
AquaBiomics
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There are more and less accurate versions of ICP out there but thats only going to get you a quantitative improvement -- a little more PO4 than you thought, a little less Tin, or whatever. I'm skeptical it will change the overall conclusion.
You might consider testing the bacterial community. Im convinced RTN is the same issue as the White Syndrome described in field research, which has many times been associated with Vibrio in the literature.
I even have an experimental vibrio-specific medication you can try if you want... but IMO the first step is to ask, is the bacterial community in your tank normal or has it been disrupted?
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