Red Sea observations.

[Bruttall]

So I am picking up a "new to me" used 125g tank a friend turned into a sump. He has a Red Sea tank in his shop we've been discussing for about the last 3 weeks. It was a front seam failure issue, he got the tank for free and is going to reseal and euro brace the tank.
One of the first things I noticed is something I had speculated about a lot, the front panel was kind of thin and it flexed, Tempered Glass does this. The next thing I noticed, or rather Nick noticed was that the silicone seemed thick, so we measured it and sure enough it was 3/16th thick when it should have been 1/8th. Thicker silicone would allow for more flex in the viewing panel right about the center of the tank!! More flex allows the water pressure to stretch the silicone farther, pushing it closer to it's breaking point. And eventually that is what has happened in a lot of these tanks. I am not sure if the RS is a g1 or g2, I'll find out today when I'm at his shop. and update this when I return.

Also I am not a Structural Engineer by any means but I think I do have a pretty good understanding of those things. I know un-tempered glass does not flex nearly as much as tempered and to support the same weight has to be thicker. This is why those old oceanics like my 300g have a 3/4inch bottom and 5/8th thick sides and front/back.
RS Makes a lot of tanks. They Mass Produce, so cost of materials is very important to them. using tempered they can use thinner glass which costs less, or it should. However I think they went to thin on several sizes and the result is all the broken seam issues we see here on R2R.

 

[X-37B]

So I am picking up a "new to me" used 125g tank a friend turned into a sump. He has a Red Sea tank in his shop we've been discussing for about the last 3 weeks. It was a front seam failure issue, he got the tank for free and is going to reseal and euro brace the tank.
One of the first things I noticed is something I had speculated about a lot, the front panel was kind of thin and it flexed, Tempered Glass does this. The next thing I noticed, or rather Nick noticed was that the silicone seemed thick, so we measured it and sure enough it was 3/16th thick when it should have been 1/8th. Thicker silicone would allow for more flex in the viewing panel right about the center of the tank!! More flex allows the water pressure to stretch the silicone farther, pushing it closer to it's breaking point. And eventually that is what has happened in a lot of these tanks. I am not sure if the RS is a g1 or g2, I'll find out today when I'm at his shop. and update this when I return.

Also I am not a Structural Engineer by any means but I think I do have a pretty good understanding of those things. I know un-tempered glass does not flex nearly as much as tempered and to support the same weight has to be thicker. This is why those old oceanics like my 300g have a 3/4inch bottom and 5/8th thick sides and front/back.
RS Makes a lot of tanks. They Mass Produce, so cost of materials is very important to them. using tempered they can use thinner glass which costs less, or it should. However I think they went to thin on several sizes and the result is all the broken seam issues we see here on R2R.

Great observation! First time I have heard of this and yea it makes perfect sense.

 

[Ziggy17]

Good insight, and appreciated. I know Red Sea increased the thickness of their glass on the G2s to address the seam issue. Some folks on here speculate it was a defective silicone failure, but that wouldn’t explain the issues we’re seeing. Thickness of the glass and perhaps the thickness of the bead seems more likely.

I also see/read a disproportionate amount of the failures on used tanks. I think we tend to compromise the structure when we move the tanks from one location to another, as we don’t package and transport nearly as well as they come new.

I’m not a tank builder or an engineer, but a RS seam failure survivor, that’s hoping the issue was resolved.

 

[CBonito]

RS seam failure survivor

That would be a great sig.

 

[Ziggy17]

That would be a great sig.

Done and done! Thanks for the idea :)

 

[BryanM]

They Mass Produce, so cost of materials is very important to them.

Yeah, but they fail to recognize what their short cuts put their customers through.

If people didn't jump out of this hobby often before a year in, I think this issue would be even bigger.

 

[CBonito]

Yeah, but they fail to recognize what their short cuts put their customers through.

If people didn't jump out of this hobby often before a year in, I think this issue would be even bigger.

That's true. And all those tanks they sell use as a result are all going somewhere. Thankfully not here.

 

[Bruttall]

Update, it was a G1. But he did reseal, euro brace and it holds water again. Still seems like a lot of work that RS could have prevented by using better materials.

 

[UncommonSense]

Update, it was a G1. But he did reseal, euro brace and it holds water again. Still seems like a lot of work that RS could have prevented by using better materials.

I would love to see photos of how he did his euro bracing!

Also, I’ve noticed the same thick silicone seams on my questionable Reefer 450 (G2)… but not THAT thick… what model is his RS tank?

I just measured out the physical seam thickness on my R450 with calipers as precisely as I could, and got 5/64”… is it possible that your friend measured the width of the silicone bead on the exterior of the seam, and not the gap between the glass panes themselves?

 

[A_Blind_Reefer]

So I am picking up a "new to me" used 125g tank a friend turned into a sump. He has a Red Sea tank in his shop we've been discussing for about the last 3 weeks. It was a front seam failure issue, he got the tank for free and is going to reseal and euro brace the tank.
One of the first things I noticed is something I had speculated about a lot, the front panel was kind of thin and it flexed, Tempered Glass does this. The next thing I noticed, or rather Nick noticed was that the silicone seemed thick, so we measured it and sure enough it was 3/16th thick when it should have been 1/8th. Thicker silicone would allow for more flex in the viewing panel right about the center of the tank!! More flex allows the water pressure to stretch the silicone farther, pushing it closer to it's breaking point. And eventually that is what has happened in a lot of these tanks. I am not sure if the RS is a g1 or g2, I'll find out today when I'm at his shop. and update this when I return.

Also I am not a Structural Engineer by any means but I think I do have a pretty good understanding of those things. I know un-tempered glass does not flex nearly as much as tempered and to support the same weight has to be thicker. This is why those old oceanics like my 300g have a 3/4inch bottom and 5/8th thick sides and front/back.
RS Makes a lot of tanks. They Mass Produce, so cost of materials is very important to them. using tempered they can use thinner glass which costs less, or it should. However I think they went to thin on several sizes and the result is all the broken seam issues we see here on R2R.

I do understand the narrative here but are we sure about these “observations”?

I’m not sure how to understand “kind of thin and flexed”,in comparison to what? (Other rimless tanks of similar size?)

Also, how did you confirm that the panels were tempered. The way I understood it was that RS has always used non tempered panels for their aquariums. I’m not stating that as fact. However, I’m fairly certain.

The comparison of a 300g tank panels to a ? (Guessing much smaller) tank isn’t apples to apples.

The silicone thickness you measured seems way out of spec. Was this possibly resealed in the past?

I’m not defending the RS quality here, but I do think we should check ourselves before we wreck ourselves when making statements like these.

 

[Bruttall]

I do understand the narrative here but are we sure about these “observations”?

I’m not sure how to understand “kind of thin and flexed”,in comparison to what? (Other rimless tanks of similar size?)

Also, how did you confirm that the panels were tempered. The way I understood it was that RS has always used non tempered panels for their aquariums. I’m not stating that as fact. However, I’m fairly certain.

The comparison of a 300g tank panels to a ? (Guessing much smaller) tank isn’t apples to apples.

The silicone thickness you measured seems way out of spec. Was this possibly resealed in the past?

I’m not defending the RS quality here, but I do think we should check ourselves before we wreck ourselves when making statements like these.

Observation means exactly that, all i reported was what I observed, with my eyes. I'm 57, been playing with fish tanks for, well a while now. I have seen the glass get thinner and thinner over the years as more tank makers started using Tempered Glass. Tempered means you can't Drill it. It shatters when you try. Usually those tanks have a Red warning label but not always. Tempering makes the glass stronger, harder to break, more resistant to impact, and gives the glass more "flex" than non tempered before it bends to a breaking point.

 

[Bruttall]

I would love to see photos of how he did his euro bracing!

I'll see if I can get some.

 

[A_Blind_Reefer]

Observation means exactly that, all i reported was what I observed, with my eyes. I'm 57, been playing with fish tanks for, well a while now. I have seen the glass get thinner and thinner over the years as more tank makers started using Tempered Glass. Tempered means you can't Drill it. It shatters when you try. Usually those tanks have a Red warning label but not always. Tempering makes the glass stronger, harder to break, more resistant to impact, and gives the glass more "flex" than non tempered before it bends to a breaking point.

I understand that these are your observations and based on what you saw. I understand what tempered glass entails.

How did you determine the glass panels on the rs tank you mentioned were in fact tempered? I’m curious as I would be very surprised if it was, unless it was replaced at some point. Like I said, I’m not stating that all rs tanks were non-tempered, maybe they are tempered….I was just under the impression they only used non-tempered glass in their aquarium’s since the beginning of time.

Look, I’m not attacking you here. It just comes across as a…no wonder these tanks are falling, we took one apart and found thin (as in substandard) tempered (flexes and adds to seam separation) glass, with excessive panel gaps (that also add to the flex and demise of the seams). Which all sounds reasonable. The exception being that I think you may have found a unicorn tank as it doesn’t sound like what should have come out of the factory if one is to believe the marketing.

Again, not defending rs here. It’s just that what you saw seems extraordinary. I’m not saying that you didn’t see what you saw, it was your eyes. I’m just throwing it out that it doesn’t sound like a non-molested tank.

 

[UncommonSense]

I understand that these are your observations and based on what you saw. I understand what tempered glass entails.

How did you determine the glass panels on the rs tank you mentioned were in fact tempered? I’m curious as I would be very surprised if it was, unless it was replaced at some point. Like I said, I’m not stating that all rs tanks were non-tempered, maybe they are tempered….I was just under the impression they only used non-tempered glass in their aquarium’s since the beginning of time.

Look, I’m not attacking you here. It just comes across as a…no wonder these tanks are falling, we took one apart and found thin (as in substandard) tempered (flexes and adds to seam separation) glass, with excessive panel gaps (that also add to the flex and demise of the seams). Which all sounds reasonable. The exception being that I think you may have found a unicorn tank as it doesn’t sound like what should have come out of the factory if one is to believe the marketing.

Again, not defending rs here. It’s just that what you saw seems extraordinary. I’m not saying that you didn’t see what you saw, it was your eyes. I’m just throwing it out that it doesn’t sound like a non-molested tank.

It is also worth noting that the silicone thickness measurement could have been taken with an imprecise/out of calibration instrument… Or, it could have simply been taken from the exterior of the tank, where the silicone is spread flat across rounded glass edges; making the line of silicone physically wider than the actual glass:glass seam! (See above photos for examples of that)

 

[A_Blind_Reefer]

It is also worth noting that the silicone thickness measurement could have been taken with an imprecise/out of calibration instrument… Or, it could have simply been taken from the exterior of the tank, where the silicone is spread flat across rounded glass edges; making the line of silicone physically wider than the actual glass:glass seam! (See above photos for examples of that)

I didn’t see your previous post..typical of me, I miss out on a lot! I don’t do pictures for the most part as I can’t see that well but what you mentioned makes perfect sense about the silicone over the beveled edges of the glass. 3/16” is obscenely large going off of my decrepit memory. I would imagine he would have caught that, especially as it was taken down to be resealed, but maybe not.

I just can’t fathom a factory gap that large. Any production line worth its salt would be using precision jigs (at like .002” accuracy) for repeatability and standard operating procedures. I would think that at the volume of adhesive used that batch controllers, preset mixing stations, and monitoring would be used for tracking absolutely every single ounce from cradle to grave. Of course that’s pure speculation, but I know they aren’t using 2x4’s cut freehand with a sawzall to line everything up.

 

[UncommonSense]

I just can’t fathom a factory gap that large. Any production line worth its salt would be using precision jigs (at like .002” accuracy) for repeatability and standard operating procedures. I would think that at the volume of adhesive used that batch controllers, preset mixing stations, and monitoring would be used for tracking absolutely every single ounce from cradle to grave. Of course that’s pure speculation, but I know they aren’t using 2x4’s cut freehand with a sawzall to line everything up.

You might be surprised on some production lines! For example, an old Red Sea factory “how we build tanks” type video showed an employee assembling a cube freehand, with no jig!

It should be noted that there is typically a slightly thicker silicone bead on larger aquariums, which scales with tank size… but even my 180g rimmed tank isn’t 3/16” of seam thickness!

On the note of precision production lines (or lack thereof), here’s a fun tank I took apart recently for project glass… yes, that’s an actual wood scrap embedded in the factory bottom seam!

 

[A_Blind_Reefer]

You might be surprised on some production lines! For example, an old Red Sea factory “how we build tanks” type video showed an employee assembling a cube freehand, with no jig!

It should be noted that there is typically a slightly thicker silicone bead on larger aquariums, which scales with tank size… but even my 180g rimmed tank isn’t 3/16” of seam thickness!

On the note of precision production lines (or lack thereof), here’s a fun tank I took apart recently for project glass… yes, that’s an actual wood scrap embedded in the factory bottom seam!

Ha! The old “the eye don’t lie” method of construction. I hope they had good vision, no tremors, and five hands!

Wood scraps in seam…..”made from recycled materials”. Maybe the wood chips have superior bonding characteristics and are added for strength, ha.