Reef Moonshiners V All for Reef

[air_run]

Here's my two year old 220g SPS reef running the whole time on AFR and just regular (bi-monthly) ICP for adjusting any deficient trace elements. I do occasionally dose extra alkalinity as needed. I "try" to keep it simple.

 

[djkms]

I run the RM method but dose Captiv8 elements. With a 600 gallon system its much more cost effective for me. I do try to maintain the elevated elements that RM suggests. I also prefer Captiv8 because I can mix almost all the elements into 1 cocktail to dose daily. I run ICP tests every 60 days. Along with element dosing I do 2 part with sodium hydroxide and calcium chloride. I also run a CO2 scrubber. PH is 8.3-8.5. NO3 5, PO4 .07-.09, dKh 8.5, CA 430, MG 1330.

I have been reefing for over 30 years. I have done it all, CA Reactor, 2 Part, Kalk, etc. I would say my most successful system was running 2 part and metal halides back in the early 2000's.

One of the things I really enjoy with this hobby is tinkering. I find maintaining individual elements challenging and fun. Is there a significant difference? Probably not but its fun.

My latest ICP attached. Not perfect but getting better every test :)

 

[areefer01]

It would be interesting to know what is the data used for reference. Per my latest ICP test results from Beqa, Fiji it recommended:

• Decrease salinity by dilution
• Increase alkalinity, it is too low
• Increase calcium
• Increase bromine/bromide
• Reduce strontium
• Increase boron
• Increase fluoride
• Monitor silicon/silicates
• Increase barium
• Increase molybdenum
• Increase nickel
• Increase beryllium
• Increase vanadium
• Increase zinc

Note: this is sarcasm although the ICP results are real and the spreadsheet did tell me that these need attention.

 

[wickedxreef]

I would not consider AFR and RMS something to compare. AFR is a system to replace alk, calcium, mag, potassium and trace elements while RMS is a system to run elevated trace elements. You can not run the RMS method without also running some type of alk calcium replacement also AFR, Kalk, 2-Part, Balling.

Agree with this! AFR to RMS isn't really an apples to apples comparisons. While AFR does add traces, it's also adding other elements. AFR probably is better to be compared with two parts that add trace elements. RMS is solely for supplementing traces.

Now, with all that said. I've recently switched away from RMS as the daily dosing became a pain to deal with. Switching to Tropic Marin A/K program has so far worked much better for me. Bonus was that it can be added to a standard BRS two part solution for adding traces. This became a win/win for me since I already had the two part setup on dosing pumps.

 

[saltyfins]

Agree with this! AFR to RMS isn't really an apples to apples comparisons. While AFR does add traces, it's also adding other elements. AFR probably is better to be compared with two parts that add trace elements. RMS is solely for supplementing traces.

Now, with all that said. I've recently switched away from RMS as the daily dosing became a pain to deal with. Switching to Tropic Marin A/K program has so far worked much better for me. Bonus was that it can be added to a standard BRS two part solution for adding traces. This became a win/win for me since I already had the two part setup on dosing pumps.

what is the A/K program?
I will say, RMS, saved my tank from a complete crash. affected corals that were dying, are actually regrowing. that's not coincedence. but, it's expensive as can be...especially on a 300 gallon system. the personal help from Andre, 1st class all the way! Many of them there, will DM with you for as long as it takes, to help you if you have any issues. No one else compares. 22 yrs reefing...

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Switching to Tropic Marin A/K program has so far worked much better for me. Bonus was that it can be added to a standard BRS two part solution for adding traces. This became a win/win for me since I already had the two part setup on dosing pumps.

When you say better, is that a convenience better or something else?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

what is the A/K program?
I will say, RMS, saved my tank from a complete crash. affected corals that were dying, are actually regrowing. that's not coincedence. but, it's expensive as can be...especially on a 300 gallon system. the personal help from Andre, 1st class all the way! Many of them there, will DM with you for as long as it takes, to help you if you have any issues. No one else compares. 22 yrs reefing...

It just means Tropic Marin A and K trace element mixes, which together are identical to what is in AFR, but can be dosed independent of alk and calcium demand (which is useful).

As an example, I use AFR, but I also dose iron and manganese in addition to it because I grow a ton of macroalgae that uses these up but not alk and calcium.

 

[wickedxreef]

When you say better, is that a convenience better or something else?

The biggest advantage for me has been the sheer convenience. While I still need to make corrections when performing ICP, the daily hassle of dosing RMS dailies has been eliminated.

Additionally, I can now leave my tank for extended vacations, which wasn't really feasible before since I had to plan out my daily dosing so carefully. I'm still using the no water change method, and my last ICP results for the Tropic Marin A/K program were pretty good. I'm actually sending off another test today, and I'm interested to see the results and how my tank is looking ICP-wise.

Also something else to bear in mind, AFR is 1/10 the element strength vs Tropic Marin A/K. I've watched a lot of Lou's videos from Tropics Marin and most of it makes logical sense.

 

[wickedxreef]

what is the A/K program?
I will say, RMS, saved my tank from a complete crash. affected corals that were dying, are actually regrowing. that's not coincedence. but, it's expensive as can be...especially on a 300 gallon system. the personal help from Andre, 1st class all the way! Many of them there, will DM with you for as long as it takes, to help you if you have any issues. No one else compares. 22 yrs reefing...

This is true that Andre will def help if you message him. Curious though how RMS saved your tank? What was the actual problem?

Here is the Tropic Marin A/K Links.

TM-A
https://www.tropic-marin-smartinfo.com/a-elements?lang=enTM-K
https://www.tropic-marin-smartinfo.com/k-elements?lang=en

 

[Troylee]

What’s the reason for moonshiners to begin with? I mean what’s the main goal? No water changes? To me it seems people are addicted to numbers and want to mimic natural sea water so bad! But, for what? There’s so much more to this game then trace elements lol.. I’m concerned about doc’s and n doc’s more than any element! There’s no testing for it either besides Triton I believe.. simple water changes remove bad stuff and bring in the good stuff! I use all for reef for alk, cal and mag! Any elements I get is a bonus but I count on water changes and feeding my fish to really replenish all my elements.. it’s a peace of mind and I don’t have to test or spend money testing and hoping they’re not lying to me..

 

[areefer01]

To me it seems people are addicted to numbers and want to mimic natural sea water so bad!

That is just it. My exercise above used my ICP test results from Fiji and the calculator gave me all kinds of things to add as they are too low. Can't be anything to do with matching natural sea water as alkalinity is lower right out of the gate. My guess is tinkering and boosting things to enhance color.

 

[fancy_fish101]

I understand that RM is much more in depth. Everything is added separately based on an icp test. It looks alluring after I see the results from people using it. It is on the higher end of cost.

All for reef is much more friendly on the budget. Handles a lot of parameters and some trace elements.

I don’t have much coral now. Other than my duncans, everything else is looking good in the tank. Just some basics, leathers, hammers. My main parameters are on point except my phos is a little elevated at .59.

I want to get ready for some sps and some higher end torches.

I’ve seen fantastic tanks using AFR as well as RM.

My tank is a 144g with a 30g sump. I have 2 gyre style and one circular power head and a 1600gph return. I have a fuge with some caulerpa. Simplicity 320dc skimmer. Reef breeders photonv2 48” (will be upgrading in the winter).

I currently use AB+ and I make my own fish food which is a mixture of salmon, shrimp, and clam…. Or some shell animal, and nori. I also feed pellets mid morning.

So my question is, is RM really worth the money or will AFR handle things well? What have been your pros and cons?

Rm is amazing am the only way I can reef now. It quite easy once you get use to it!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Rm is amazing am the only way I can reef now. It quite easy once you get use to it!

What did you do previously?

 

[wickedxreef]

What’s the reason for moonshiners to begin with? I mean what’s the main goal? No water changes? To me it seems people are addicted to numbers and want to mimic natural sea water so bad! But, for what? There’s so much more to this game then trace elements lol.. I’m concerned about doc’s and n doc’s more than any element! There’s no testing for it either besides Triton I believe.. simple water changes remove bad stuff and bring in the good stuff! I use all for reef for alk, cal and mag! Any elements I get is a bonus but I count on water changes and feeding my fish to really replenish all my elements.. it’s a peace of mind and I don’t have to test or spend money testing and hoping they’re not lying to me..

The most insightful description I've heard about why people use Moonshine is for achieving extra coloration in their corals and complete control over the elements going into the tank. It seems to be for those who have already reached their desired coral health but are looking for that subtle, additional color boost or added growth. It also offers precise, granular control over specific elements. While I believe similar results can be achieved without an RMS version, other vendors, such as Tropic Marin, Fauna Marin, Brightwell, and Red Sea, appear to be catching up to what RMS offers.

I also heard a compelling counter-argument from Lou from Tropic Marin regarding water changes. He suggested that for some maturing tanks, the percentage of water change might become insufficient to replenish the beneficial elements consumed by growing corals. As tanks and corals mature, their consumption rates increase exponentially. This could be a contributing factor to what's often referred to as "old tank syndrome."

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I also heard a compelling counter-argument from Lou from Tropic Marin regarding water changes. He suggested that for some maturing tanks, the percentage of water change might become insufficient to replenish the beneficial elements consumed by growing corals. As tanks and corals mature, their consumption rates increase exponentially. This could be a contributing factor to what's often referred to as "old tank syndrome."

I certainly agree with that. I don't consider water changes very useful for fast depleting elements such as iron and manganese, and they can never keep anything at levels in the salt mix long term if there is any significant consumption.

That said, fish foods may add far more than water changes, and folks seem to ignore that.

i discuss it here:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/r...e-elements-coming-from.1014155/#post-11864284
The question posed that I answer there:

Which adds more iron to a 100 L reef tank that is completely depleted in iron:

1. A 100% water change with natural seawater, which we will assume for this purpose has a concentration of 0.5 nM or 28 ng/L = 0.028 ug/L
2. 1 medium shrimp (size 41-60/pound)
3. Nori sheet 7" x 8"
4. 1 whole sardine (2-2/3" x 1/2" x 1/4")

 

[Troylee]

The most insightful description I've heard about why people use Moonshine is for achieving extra coloration in their corals and complete control over the elements going into the tank. It seems to be for those who have already reached their desired coral health but are looking for that subtle, additional color boost or added growth. It also offers precise, granular control over specific elements. While I believe similar results can be achieved without an RMS version, other vendors, such as Tropic Marin, Fauna Marin, Brightwell, and Red Sea, appear to be catching up to what RMS offers.

I also heard a compelling counter-argument from Lou from Tropic Marin regarding water changes. He suggested that for some maturing tanks, the percentage of water change might become insufficient to replenish the beneficial elements consumed by growing corals. As tanks and corals mature, their consumption rates increase exponentially. This could be a contributing factor to what's often referred to as "old tank syndrome."

Lighting spectrum plays the biggest role in coloration if you ask me.. can you tweak colors with elements I really don’t know and I’m happy with the colors I have.. I know taricha was testing elements and colors but I haven’t seen the thread in awhile..

 

[wickedxreef]

I certainly agree with that. I don't consider water changes very useful for fast depleting elements such as iron and manganese, and they can never keep anything at levels in the salt mix long term if there is any significant consumption.

That said, fish foods may add far more than water changes, and folks seem to ignore that.

i discuss it here:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/r...e-elements-coming-from.1014155/#post-11864284
The question posed that I answer there:

Which adds more iron to a 100 L reef tank that is completely depleted in iron:

1. A 100% water change with natural seawater, which we will assume for this purpose has a concentration of 0.5 nM or 28 ng/L = 0.028 ug/L
2. 1 medium shrimp (size 41-60/pound)
3. Nori sheet 7" x 8"
4. 1 whole sardine (2-2/3" x 1/2" x 1/4")

I found your article very insightful. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to focus primarily on the Iron element.

I'm curious because the broader discussion around food additives often centers on the phosphates introduced rather than other specific elements. It's definitely an important point worth considering.

 

[wickedxreef]

Lighting spectrum plays the biggest role in coloration if you ask me.. can you tweak colors with elements I really don’t know and I’m happy with the colors I have.. I know taricha was testing elements and colors but I haven’t seen the thread in awhile..

Id even add nutrients into biggest factor also for corals colors. IE: the old ULNR looking pale vs higher nutrient tanks with deeper and richer colors.

 

[Troylee]

Id even add nutrients into biggest factor also for corals colors. IE: the old ULNR looking pale vs higher nutrient tanks with deeper and richer colors.

For sure that will lighten or darken them.. lighting spectrum especially under just blues changes the colors a lot! I’ve cut some frags off my display and placed them in my sump under strictly blue light and after a month it’s totally different than my display but little to no growth lol.. my bill Murray for instance is green with blue tips and hints of red under full spectrum in the display.. a frag of that in my sump for a month is solid aqua blue! It’s really weird..

 

[jackson6745]

AFR and Kalk method for now. IF it aint broke.

What percentage of kalk/afr do you dose? I’ve been dosing kalk primarily about 80% of demand and 2 part for the rest. I wanted to incorporate afr in place of the 2 part. Thoughts?