Reef Moonshiners V All for Reef

[areefer01]

Please explain…

Please do not tell my BC efflo 2.0 that it is going to die one day due to my use of AFR.

 

[Troylee]

Please do not tell my BC efflo 2.0 that it is going to die one day due to my use of AFR.

I’m def taking that with the whole salt shaker after reading his post history.. I’d like to even see a link to a tank that crashed like he claims.

 

[adauqua]

I am currently using AFR and consider to switch to 2-parts + trace A/K

What problem causes a crash?

Did you experience a crash attributed to AFR?

I recently saw a comment from "Acro Garden" in Boston reefers' forum below:

"From Formate, as in All-for-Reef, it can be biologically converted to carbon dioxide (pathway on the left), which is how it add alkalinity.
But it also can be converted to formaldehyde, (pathway on the right), which is not that good."

https://bostonreefers.org/forums/in...2-part-to-1-part-solution.179171/post-1483994
Could it be the problem?

 

[areefer01]

I am currently using AFR and consider to switch to 2-parts + trace A/K

I recently saw a comment from "Acro Garden" in Boston reefers' forum below:

"From Formate, as in All-for-Reef, it can be biologically converted to carbon dioxide (pathway on the left), which is how it add alkalinity.
But it also can be converted to formaldehyde, (pathway on the right), which is not that good."

https://bostonreefers.org/forums/in...2-part-to-1-part-solution.179171/post-1483994
Could it be the problem?

Well, we could put this to rest I guess by asking @Hans-Werner his thoughts on the subject.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I am currently using AFR and consider to switch to 2-parts + trace A/K

I recently saw a comment from "Acro Garden" in Boston reefers' forum below:

"From Formate, as in All-for-Reef, it can be biologically converted to carbon dioxide (pathway on the left), which is how it add alkalinity.
But it also can be converted to formaldehyde, (pathway on the right), which is not that good."

https://bostonreefers.org/forums/in...2-part-to-1-part-solution.179171/post-1483994
Could it be the problem?

I was just visiting Dong (Acrogarden) last week and he gave me some corals for my tank. He is a chemist and understands these issues, but there’s no reason that I know of to think that enough formaldehyde is made to be an issue from formate or from other sources.

Bear in mind the formaldehyde is present in natural seawater as well.

https://aslopubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.4319/lo.1995.40.3.0521

 

[805reeftank]

I’ve used AFR from the very beginning of my tank. It was an all fresh rock new sand tank. I just really liked the idea of the product and ease of use, I’m mean 1 dosing pump and it takes care of everything else SWEET!

I didn’t even send my first ICP test till a year in and to my surprise it was reasonably good. I tried to chance some of the deficiencies but in the end I’ve just left it alone. I might one day go back to trying to tweak it. This is my last ICP I did in April which at this point the tank is 15 months old, I need to send another one soon just to see where things are. I only do 15% water changes weekly and feed pellets

My tank is now just over 1.5 years old I’ve done some changes, always moving coral to get a good color balance and I’ve removed some rock to give my torch/hammers more room to grow without touching my sps.

End of January 2024 when I started the tank

About 6 months in

1 year

Current date.

like I said I really like AFR and I’ve thought about trying RMS and I still might just to see what the fuss is about. But for now AFR is doing just fine for me.

 

[Reign1]

What percentage of kalk/afr do you dose? I’ve been dosing kalk primarily about 80% of demand and 2 part for the rest. I wanted to incorporate afr in place of the 2 part. Thoughts?

I am dosing 550ml of Kalk nightly and during day about 40 ml AFR in an approx 130 gallon tank ..
I was dosing higher amounts of Kalk but has a slow down in all use by coral so had to bump down ..

 

[saltyfins]

What did the ICP find in the salt? There seem to be a number of people here that really like that salt. I have never used it.

I dont know yet. it just went out this week. could be absolutley nothing.... and yes, it's supposed to be great, which is exactly why I got it

 

[Baylott224]

Afr is great

 

[Baylott224]

I've never used kalkwasser what exactly is that what parameters does it keep stable and why to use on top of afr

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I've never used kalkwasser what exactly is that what parameters does it keep stable and why to use on top of afr

It is calcium hydroxide. It maintains alk and calcium and provides a pH boost.

I detail it here:

What Your Grandmother Never Told You About Lime by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

And compare methods here:

https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/pros-and-cons-of-alkalinity-and-calcium-dosing-methods.1069/

 

[Troylee]

I've never used kalkwasser what exactly is that what parameters does it keep stable and why to use on top of afr

On larger systems like mine I use it to offset the cost of all for reef and to get the ph boost.. I’d be dosing 400ml a day or more of all for reef if I didn’t use kalk lol..

 

[Baylott224]

I looked it up IL just stick with afr

 

[Hans-Werner]

Well, we could put this to rest I guess by asking @Hans-Werner his thoughts on the subject.

Thank you Randy for already answering the question better than I could have done it and thank you all for your excellent feedbacks.

I agree with Randy that formaldhyde is an organic substance that is formed in natural processes and is just as well degraded by natural processes and also ends up as CO2 or bicarbonate, just as going the other passway.

The potential for the degradation is quite well known since formaldehyde has been used and maybe still is as fish medication.

 

[t5Nitro]

I didn’t get a chance to read this thread yet, but I’m interested in going through it later.

Briefly, my experience with a no water change system (for years) while dosing AFR shows deficiencies in various elements. I suspect it isn’t uncommon to be using something like RM in addition to AFR.

 

[Hans-Werner]

I didn’t get a chance to read this thread yet, but I’m interested in going through it later.

Briefly, my experience with a no water change system (for years) while dosing AFR shows deficiencies in various elements. I suspect it isn’t uncommon to be using something like RM in addition to AFR.

What do you mean with "deficiencies"? You observed deficiencies in corals or ICP labs have reported "deficiencies"?

 

[ChrisfromBrick]

I understand that RM is much more in depth. Everything is added separately based on an icp test. It looks alluring after I see the results from people using it. It is on the higher end of cost.

All for reef is much more friendly on the budget. Handles a lot of parameters and some trace elements.

I don’t have much coral now. Other than my duncans, everything else is looking good in the tank. Just some basics, leathers, hammers. My main parameters are on point except my phos is a little elevated at .59.

I want to get ready for some sps and some higher end torches.

I’ve seen fantastic tanks using AFR as well as RM.

My tank is a 144g with a 30g sump. I have 2 gyre style and one circular power head and a 1600gph return. I have a fuge with some caulerpa. Simplicity 320dc skimmer. Reef breeders photonv2 48” (will be upgrading in the winter).

I currently use AB+ and I make my own fish food which is a mixture of salmon, shrimp, and clam…. Or some shell animal, and nori. I also feed pellets mid morning.

So my question is, is RM really worth the money or will AFR handle things well? What have been your pros and cons?

I do AFR with supplemented Kalkwasser (very cheap). Still experimenting with the kalk to keep an impactful but enough of a dose to allow stability. AFR is not cost effective with big tanks imo.

 

[t5Nitro]

What do you mean with "deficiencies"? You observed deficiencies in corals or ICP labs have reported "deficiencies"?

Oceamo ICP revealed numerous deficiencies. I haven’t noticed any significant coral health problems. There is lab evidence of deficiencies that may or may not be relevant. I haven’t tried to replace them yet. I plan to do so at some point to see if it truly makes a noticeable difference.

I’ll find the ICP result from Oceamo and display the elements AFR is missing. This actually may be very useful information for you Hans and others who use AFR as their primary source of elements. The test may be broadly useful for others as it comes from results of a mixed reef without water changes.

(I want to send a sample of newly mixed saltwater (I have aqua forest on hand) to see if the new saltwater replaces the deficient elements, but I haven’t yet because the test is pricey and my corals are growing)

 

[Koty]

Thank you Randy for already answering the question better than I could have done it and thank you all for your excellent feedbacks.

I agree with Randy that formaldhyde is an organic substance that is formed in natural processes and is just as well degraded by natural processes and also ends up as CO2 or bicarbonate, just as going the other passway.

The potential for the degradation is quite well known since formaldehyde has been used and maybe still is as fish medication.

I would be very careful calling formaldehyde a fish medication. It is a very toxic and carcinogenic compound. More accurately, I would say that it kills fish parasites a bit faster than it kills the fish.

 

[Hans-Werner]

I would be very careful calling formaldehyde a fish medication. It is a very toxic and carcinogenic compound. More accurately, I would say that it kills fish parasites a bit faster than it kills the fish.

Yes, but that's the way most fish medications worked, particularly copper, maybe the most used. I remember that some fish families are more sensitive to copper and the long term effect may be liver problems.

Dr. Gerald Bassleer is THE European authority for diseases of aquarium fish and he lists formaldehyde as fish medication in the 2000 edition of his book "Fischkrankheiten im Meerwasseraquarium", 1 ml formaldehyde 37 % per 100 l.