Reefers Moonshine Method - Let's discuss

[Reefahholic]

How do you know it's enough? Just trusting that moonshine is putting enough in? Organism observation?

For iron and manganese, how's that different than dosing Kent iron and manganese supplement?

From what I understand the problem is that current ICP analysis cannot get down to the values needed for us to really zero in. Therefore, the dailies are dosed. A little bit of something is better than a little bit of nothing. :-)

 

[X-37B]

Unfortunately they don’t test for some elements nor do they test your RODI water which a lot of the time is where problems stem from.

Well im not woried about my ro/di. It is a base line for future reference. Ill post back when I get results to see what may be missing vs the other.
For a full sps system I have kept it very basic with good results.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Randy, am I correct in concluding that one of your issues with a system that relies on monthly tests to measure elements that fluctuate daily is that the tests are necessarily prone to a high degree of error; i.e. if your sample was pulled when, say iron, was at a low level for the day and you adjust based on that test result, you will be overdosing for the actual mean level?

Are these errors mediated by repeating the tests each month? Or are they equally likely to be exacerbated?

I'm not against the "method" at all.

I'm striving to understand what it actually accomplishes and if it measures up to the ideal of dosing to a target. Clearly, its does not do that for all elements.

In that sense, its a step up from prescribed dosing for some elements (those that are adjusted based on testing), and the same as prescribed dosing (e.g., "add 2 drops a day of a DIY iron solution") for others such as iron and manganese.

I had assumed it was better than that, but that doesn't mean it isn't still good to use.

 

[Reefahholic]

It's just another form of how one maintains chemistry, it's not for everyone and others could care less. The problem with other ways of maintaining chemistry is their limited ability to dose exactly what your tank needs and that you're not stuck with dosing 4 bottles with mixed elements at certain ratios. As someone who is actually maintaining a reef tank, I see it's results. I tried Triton, but had issues with the inability to dose what's needed and found a lot of elements were elevated or depleted. If someone has a dream method, then go for it, that's the great thing about this hobby, we can share and learn from each other. We should question our methods, but we also need to keep an open mind and see the benefits of how we each keep our tanks going.

Yes I agree. If Triton is your choice go for it.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

From what I understand the problem is that current ICP analysis cannot get down to the values needed for us to really zero in. Therefore, the dailies are dosed. A little bit of something is better than a little bit of nothing. :)

Yes, I understand that. That's a fundamental limitation of a method like this which must default to prescribed dosing like a typical trace element supplement for hard to quantify elements (or do like Red Sea does and recommend a super high level (iron) which can be detected.

 

[Reefahholic]

Well im not woried about my ro/di. It is a base line for future reference. Ill post back when I get results to see what may be missing vs the other.
For a full sps system I have kept it very basic with good results.

To that I would say keep doing what is working for you.

I’d also say after looking at hundreds of ICP test results in our group and methods used with Moonshine (CaRx, reg 2-part, Balling, All-for-Reef, ESV, and the list goes on) I’ll never run a system again without ICP analysis and element corrections. I see so many low or completely depleted elements. Also a lot of contamination.

 

[Reefahholic]

Yes, I understand that. That's a fundamental limitation of a method like this which must default to prescribed dosing like a typical trace element supplement for hard to quantify elements (or do like Red Sea does and recommend a super high level (iron) which can be detected.

It’s really a difficult issue, but I feel like Andre has handled it in a way that is safe, but also allows some of these elements to be consumed by the corals. It might be a small amount, but from what I’ve observed it’s working quite well. I’ve never seen anybody that comes in unhappy. There has been some pretty amazing tanks turn into really amazing tanks. :-)

 

[Reefahholic]

Yes, I understand that. That's a fundamental limitation of a method like this which must default to prescribed dosing like a typical trace element supplement for hard to quantify elements (or do like Red Sea does and recommend a super high level (iron) which can be detected.

Randy, when do you suspect these ICP analysis will make it to the next level and be able to detect down to the values needed to really zero in on these elements.

It would be nice if we had more labs in the US with 1 day shipping like Amazon. ;Happy

You literally need a lab at the house to fully understand how quickly these elements are consumed and how much.

 

[minus9]

It’s really a difficult issue, but I feel like Andre has handled it in a way that is safe, but also allows some of these elements to be consumed by the corals. It might be a small amount, but from what I’ve observed it’s working quite well. I’ve never seen anybody that comes in unhappy. There has been some pretty amazing tanks turn into really amazing tanks. :)

This! ^^^^^^^ Having kept saltwater aquaria for nearly 40 years, you begin to take notice of the things that work and don't work. After a while, you start to dig deeper to try and understand what's going on (in our tanks), but it's still a mystery in some regards. But you do notice when something works and you stick with it and keep discovering more. Lighting and flow are easy to get down, but biology and chemistry are the big two that I see where we need the biggest improvements in how we maintain our tanks.

 

[Pistondog]

Most people that I’ve talked to use the Core 7. Although, I think what that differentiates Triton from Moonshine is that they do not have an ICP assessment tool with guided dosing and problem solving.

Another thing is that Andre gives people specific guidance almost daily in our group. That in itself is worth its weight in gold especially at his experience level. Randy, that’s basically what you do in your forum also. Both of you guys are awesome and have helped me personally over the last 10-15 years more than I can count.

Core 7 base
If you get ICP tested via Triton lab, and have your aquarium registered, they have an assessment tool with recommended additions to dose, dose amounts and list their products to dose, based on your ICP reported element. deficiencies.
And a water change schedule for excessive elements.

 

[minus9]

Randy, when do you suspect these ICP analysis will make it to the next level and be able to detect down to the values needed to really zero in on these elements.

It would be nice if we had more labs in the US with 1 day shipping like Amazon. ;Happy

You literally need a lab at the house to fully understand how quickly these elements are consumed and how much.

I've been bugging ATI to set up a USA lab for a couple years now. Fortunately, I'm 15 minutes from Unique where the USA Triton lab is located, but they still don't test for the things I need.

 

[RGoltz]

This! ^^^^^^^ Having kept saltwater aquaria for nearly 40 years, you begin to take notice of the things that work and don't work. After a while, you start to dig deeper to try and understand what's going on (in our tanks), but it's still a mystery in some regards. But you do notice when something works and you stick with it and keep discovering more. Lighting and flow are easy to get down, but biology and chemistry are the big two that I see where we need the biggest improvements in how we maintain our tanks.

Great points. It strikes me that there are aspects which are reasonably well studied and understood. And in some cases there are actually industrial applications. It in others - I’m particularly speaking to biology and the actual demand for trace elements - I don’t think we have a clear understanding and thus are simply attempting to simulate NSW. When thinking about it this way, we DO need to rely on anecdotal observation and thus Andre’s spreadsheet of knowledge plus an active community is useful.

 

[Reefahholic]

Core 7 base
If you get ICP tested via Triton lab, and have your aquarium registered, they have an assessment tool with recommended additions to dose, dose amounts and list their products to dose, based on your ICP reported element. deficiencies.
And a water change schedule for excessive elements.

We go a step above NSW. Elements are elevated for better coloration. Here’s a daylight pic of Andre’s tank. I wanna see a daylight pic of a Triton tank that has this coloration at NSW levels. :-)

 

[Reefahholic]

I've been bugging ATI to set up a USA lab for a couple years now. Fortunately, I'm 15 minutes from Unique where the USA Triton lab is located, but they still don't test for the things I need.

Agreed. I know he picked ATI for a lot of other reasons too. I won’t get into that here, but it’s not only because they test RO water and additional elements. :-)

 

[mindme]

For iron and manganese, how's that different than dosing Kent iron and manganese supplement?

From what I understand, nothing. And in fact, you can buy those specifically to dose with.

But to me, that is the upside.

I understand the limitation you mentioned, I've enjoyed this discussion quite a bit. You certainly made me pause when it comes to rapidly depleting minerals, which are likely covered with the tri-balling method as the trace minerals are already dosed automatically daily(twice a day technically).

But I am already not doing water changes and already using a method to replenish trace elements. And I'm already doing the occasional ICP test to monitor things. And not just for what I need to add, it's also good for what I need to remove(last test had excess metals, I added some media to remove metals, I'm anxious what the test I sent off a few days ago come back with).

So, it's the same limitations I already have is it not? The main difference being that I have more direct control over elements. If I do happen to see high levels of those elements in a test, I'll at least know I've gone too far.

Certainly going to be more mindful when it comes to rapidly depleting things. I did not realize some things depleted so quickly.

 

[rtparty]

The truth is we can go back and forth for 50 more pages debating every little thing about the RM method and if it is "good enough" or a "waste of money" or if it is "too mad scientist" or whatever other excuses are out there.

None of that is even relevant for those of us THAT ACTUALLY USE the RM method. Find me all the negative comments and people that had such poor results they quit using the method....I will wait...

I started running the RM method in February of 2021. I had done a 10% water change a couple days before sending my first ICP. I did another 10% water change in May for no other reason than "that is what I am supposed to do" and it was pointless. It wasn't addressing any issues. Water changes don't replenish trace elements. This is fact. The salt mix would have to contain elevated parameters of each trace element. None of them do.

And guess what? That holy grail almighty TM salt is having serious issues right now. I know many want to sweep it under the rug but the issues aren't going away. They are very real and here to stay. We are seeing them pop up daily right now in the AskBRS group. They are becoming so prevalent I am going to find out if my new box is from Turkey. If so, it will go directly in the trash. TM needs to pull ALL salt from their Turkey factory until they figure out what has happened.

So, for those of you relying on water changes as insurance or to fix problems, you sure put a lot of trust into these salt companies. We have to assume they don't ever get anything contaminated and just trust them. Kind of like those of us running the RM method trust Andre and his findings. So far, my results are lining up directly with what I expected. Best tank I have ever had in 17 years. Dosing a few dailies is so much easier than a 20g water change. Not to mention I live in Utah and we are under a very real threat of drought. Dumping thousands of gallons of water down the drain every year is not responsible in the least.

I send off an ICP test every 2 months now. Salt costs more than that even for IO Purple. Andre's additives are actually super cheap compared to others. $20 for 500ml is 1/5 the cost of ATI and Triton. Andre will even tell you the concentration. Triton still doesn't do that. Kind of shady IMO.

So, is the RM method for everyone? No, especially those that can't step back and question why they do what they do. I question many things in the RM method still to this day. I don't and won't use the Brightwell Alk, Ca, and Mg. Why? BRS 2 part showed better in the ICP testing they had done. It also cost me $90 for 35 gallons. That will last me 2 years at my current consumption. Lol that is dirt cheap.

I've rambled on long enough. Read the handbook. Look at the thousands of successful tanks running RM and make your own decision. Those of us ACTUALLY using the program, love it.

 

[Reefahholic]

Just form being on this program I can tell you that most new tanks (not all) need one or all of the following elements. Not to mention…quite a bit of it.

• Fluoride
• Barium
• Boron

These elements always seem to need initiall corrections.

 

[reef_ranch]

I'm not against the "method" at all.

I'm striving to understand what it actually accomplishes and if it measures up to the ideal of dosing to a target. Clearly, its does not do that for all elements.

In that sense, its a step up from prescribed dosing for some elements (those that are adjusted based on testing), and the same as prescribed dosing (e.g., "add 2 drops a day of a DIY iron solution") for others such as iron and manganese.

I had assumed it was better than that, but that doesn't mean it isn't still good to use.

My question didn't assume you were against it, just trying to confirm my understanding of the limitations of the system. More info is always better than less, but I don't want to go down a rabbit hole of testing and dosing if the "more info" isn't enough info to accurately dose elements that fluctuate over the course of the day. Right now, I'm trusting Tropic Marin to have done the leg work and dose their trace elements at their recommended amounts and run an ICP test every few months to confirm nothing gets completely out of whack (I now daily dose a small amount Iodine as recommended by Triton after my last test). I know that isn't perfect either, but does have "easy" going for it.

 

[Reefahholic]

I started running the RM method in February of 2021. I had done a 10% water change a couple days before sending my first ICP. I did another 10% water change in May for no other reason than "that is what I am supposed to do" and it was pointless. It wasn't addressing any issues. Water changes don't replenish trace elements. This is fact. The salt mix would have to contain elevated parameters of each trace element. None of them do.

We had a guy who thought for sure that water changes would fix every trace element. What he didn’t understand is that the program is based on elevated elements and a water change will never get you there. :-)

 

[Scdell]

People are putting a lot of trust in their salt mix. Talk about dosing to target. How do we we actually know what's really in those salt mixes? By what they tell us, what we read on the bag?
Thanks but I'll drink my Moonshine.