Relocating braces on full tank

[Koh23]

Simple question, but I'm afraid that answer will be very complicated ;)

When building tank, i added braces on front-end glass (as i always do). And i added vertical braces at 3 points - middle, and one in each corner. As i always do.

Only problem is that i make end braces too close to ends of glass, so it's hard to reach corners with hands, or for cleaning, removing pumps etc..... Ok, not THAT big problem, but....

So, idea is simply to reallocate these braces, and place them further from edges. Again, no problem, only, tank is full of water (of course)....

And i figured a workaround, without, as i hope, risk of weakening structure of tank.

I plan to cut two new strips, same as old, and silicone them next to these "wrongly placed". Then, when silicone is dry, i will simply remove old ones. I believe in this way, i will not compromise integrity and strength of tank. Old ones will hold tank together (as they do now), and when new are siliconed and dry, old ones will be removed, new ones takes task to hold tank together...

Simple drawing (not too accurate and to scale) to illustrate what i'm talking about....

Black lines are braces that are ok. Yellow are these ok braces on slightly wrong places ;) And red represent new braces that i plan to add, and then remove yellow braces.

I need thoughts and opinions, is this ok idea and way to solve this issue, or is it disaster in progress, if i go this way? Or maybe i'm complicating things, maybe it's ok to simply remove one brace, relocate it, when dry, repeat process on other end?

Thank you!

 

[Rtaylor]

What size tank? Are you talking about eurobracing? Otherwise? I’ve never seen a tank with vertical braces inside the glass. If you use the appropriate thickness of the glass and eurobracing for larger tanks, you shouldn’t need anything else. Unless I’m totally misunderstanding what you mean. This just seems like a weird way to build a tank?

 

[Koh23]

Well, maybe u right, maybe it is a weird way, but, it's a way tanks are buildt here....

Maybe the picture will make it better to understand.....

This is one corner, from top.

And i want to move this brace few cm to left..... I mean, right, picture is rotated, not sure why

Tank is buildt with 10mm glass, 130x60x60....



Edit - a pic from net may explain better of this style of bracing....

Difference is that left and right brace are not siliconed to side panels of tank, there is a gap, like i draw it.

 

[Rtaylor]

According to online calculators a tank that size should use 11-12mm glass. 11 mm gives you a safety factor around 3 and 12mm closer to 3.8. 10mm glass provides a safety factor of ~2.5. The standard typically used is 3.8, meaning the seam shouldn’t fail at 3.8 times the expected load (weight of the water etc.).

If you want to do what you described, it should work ok, except idk why you would want to silicone it underwater? I’d at least partially drain the tank….or maybe look into if eurobracing would provide the extra strength you need.

 

[Rtaylor]

Well, maybe u right, maybe it is a weird way, but, it's a way tanks are buildt here....

Maybe the picture will make it better to understand.....

This is one corner, from top.

And i want to move this brace few cm to left..... I mean, right, picture is rotated, not sure why

Tank is buildt with 10mm glass, 130x60x60....



Edit - a pic from net may explain better of this style of bracing....

Difference is that left and right brace are not siliconed to side panels of tank, there is a gap, like i draw it.

There aren’t any vertical pieces? This is eurobracing, typically you only see it at the top, but if bottom glass isn’t thick enough, I suppose it could help.

 

[Koh23]

Trust me, with this type of bracing, this is small tank for 10mm glass, 10mm glass buildt like this can go way further in terms of lenght, biggest i buildt is 250cm..... So, twice as long....

No need for calculators, many tanks enduring many years with no issue is good enough for me.

Yes, if one have thicker glass, sure, why not, but in terms of security, this is safe as any tank can be...

I dont "need" extra strenght, i simply want to reallocate side bracing few cm.

Not sure, maybe i didnt ask correctly, why all talk about strenght, security, etc....

I dont need extra strenght, not worried about security, i just want to reallocate braces...

And no, they are not underwater, not sure from where that come from? ;)

 

[Rtaylor]

Trust me, with this type of bracing, this is small tank for 10mm glass, 10mm glass buildt like this can go way further in terms of lenght, biggest i buildt is 250cm..... So, twice as long....

No need for calculators, many tanks enduring many years with no issue is good enough for me.

Yes, if one have thicker glass, sure, why not, but in terms of security, this is safe as any tank can be...

I dont "need" extra strenght, i simply want to reallocate side bracing few cm.

Not sure, maybe i didnt ask correctly, why all talk about strenght, security, etc....

I dont need extra strenght, not worried about security, i just want to reallocate braces...

And no, they are not underwater, not sure from where that come from? ;)

I was just saying you wouldn’t need extra bracing if using thicker glass. IMO a tank looks nicer without a vertical brace like that. But, it’s your tank, so to each their own. What you are proposing should work fine. You stated the tank was full of water, so I thought you were indicating that was part of the problem.

 

[Koh23]

Yes, agree, i will be estatic if one day i build tank this size (or larger) without any bracing, but, when building on budget.... And price difference 10mm vs 15 is insane. Even more in this case, when 10mm costs 0 money, i already have glass ;)

Fact that tank is full is brought simply to indicate that max pressure is already on glass and braces, so, if i simply silicone new ones, and then remove old, it shouldnt create more pressure, like it probably will if i remove old ones and silicone it again. So, safe to assume that no extra pressure will be on glas while i work on new braces.

IF i empty some of the water, and then remove and reallocate braces, i fear that, when full again, pressure will not be equaly spreaded trough these 3 braces, meaning, more pressure will be on center.

 

[Rtaylor]

Yes, agree, i will be estatic if one day i build tank this size (or larger) without any bracing, but, when building on budget.... And price difference 10mm vs 15 is insane. Even more in this case, when 10mm costs 0 money, i already have glass ;)

Fact that tank is full is brought simply to indicate that max pressure is already on glass and braces, so, if i simply silicone new ones, and then remove old, it shouldnt create more pressure, like it probably will if i remove old ones and silicone it again. So, safe to assume that no extra pressure will be on glas while i work on new braces.

IF i empty some of the water, and then remove and reallocate braces, i fear that, when full again, pressure will not be equaly spreaded trough these 3 braces, meaning, more pressure will be on center.

I don’t follow. If you empty the tank, there should be zero issue moving and replacing the existing braces. Most of the pressure the tank will experience is from the water. If it fails without bracing whilst empty….that would indicate a structural problem with the joints.

 

[Koh23]

Yes, if tank is empty.

No, if tank is half full, for example. Then, some pressure on glass is still there, no matter how much exactly.

If i remove two braces, all of pressure is now on one brace, which is ok at this point, because tank is half full, and glass itself can handle pressure.

When i glue two new braces, they hold 0 pressure, and middle hold 50. So to speak. When tank is filled again, end braces will hold 50 pressure, center will hold 100.

Ok, maybe i'm complicating, but, first thing i learned is - braces are siliconed when tank is empty (no pressure on anything), or when its full (max pressure on everyrhing)....

Not when half empty....

But maybe im wrong.

 

[Rtaylor]

Yes, if tank is empty.

No, if tank is half full, for example. Then, some pressure on glass is still there, no matter how much exactly.

If i remove two braces, all of pressure is now on one brace, which is ok at this point, because tank is half full, and glass itself can handle pressure.

When i glue two new braces, they hold 0 pressure, and middle hold 50. So to speak. When tank is filled again, end braces will hold 50 pressure, center will hold 100.

Ok, maybe i'm complicating, but, first thing i learned is - braces are siliconed when tank is empty (no pressure on anything), or when its full (max pressure on everyrhing)....

Not when half empty....

But maybe im wrong.

Still not following. Will it be empty or full? Just empty it and move what you want.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

When building tank, i added braces on front-end glass (as i always do). And i added vertical braces at 3 points - middle, and one in each corner. As i always do.

I do not understand what/where the "vertical braces" are...?

Also, from your drawing, you decided to build a standard perimeter- eurobraced tank except the bracing on the short sides aren't attached to the side panels?

 

[Rtaylor]

I think maybe I’m misunderstanding what you mean by a vertical brace. I am assuming you mean a brace that goes from bottom to top, so the height of the tank. This is what I’ve never heard of. Is that what you mean? Perhaps perpendicular and parallel are more accurate terms?

 

[Koh23]

Exactly..... Braces are not attached on sides.

Forgive me, i tought that this is clearly visible from drawing.....

If you looking at drawing, there are two horizontal braces, and 3 vertical. Horizontal braces are on front and back glass. But NOT on edges, like standard eurobrace, they are 2cm below glass edge.

Vertical braces are siliconed to the horizontal braces, but NOT siliconed to left and right glass panel.

Again, my bad, i was refering to drawing, which is top view, so, yes, maybe not accurate naming of things...

There is no way to get to empty tank, if that is possible, this topic simply wouldnt exist ;)

 

[Rtaylor]

Exactly..... Braces are not attached on sides.

Forgive me, i tought that this is clearly visible from drawing.....

If you looking at drawing, there are two horizontal braces, and 3 vertical. Horizontal braces are on front and back glass. But NOT on edges, like standard eurobrace, they are 2cm below glass edge.

Vertical braces are siliconed to the horizontal braces, but NOT siliconed to left and right glass panel.

Again, my bad, i was refering to drawing, which is top view, so, yes, maybe not accurate naming of things...

There is no way to get to empty tank, if that is possible, this topic simply wouldnt exist ;)

Ok, that makes a lot more sense. Out of curiosity, why not just do standard eurobracing? Then there aren’t any gaps to have to clean around?

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

Vertical braces are siliconed to the horizontal braces, but NOT siliconed to left and right glass panel.

Ok, understanding that you're referring to "vertical" LINES on your drawing, I would not brace a tank this way. You posted other info saying you know the bracing is sufficient and I'm not going to try to argue with you about that, but the wisdom of eurobraced tanks is to have the braces attach to the outside panels... Compare your drawing to the picture you posted.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

Ok, understanding that you're referring to "vertical" LINES on your drawing, I would not brace a tank this way. You posted other info saying you know the bracing is sufficient and I'm not going to try to argue with you about that, but the wisdom of eurobraced tanks is to have the braces attach to the outside panels... Compare your drawing to the picture you posted.

But to answer your original question... Yes, I would assume that adding new glass before removing the old would prevent a reduction in support. But I still don't know if the way you have the side panels add the needed support in the first place.

 

[Koh23]

Ok, that makes a lot more sense. Out of curiosity, why not just do standard eurobracing? Then there aren’t any gaps to have to clean around?

I newer do standard eurobracing, really have no special reason, maybe it's easier to manage cables, pipes, etc, when you have clean sides, and front-back panels.... Or maybe just habit, like i said, i saw and built many tanks like this, but, in all of years, i seen maybe 2 fully eurobraced tanks. And i saw none with problems because they are not eurobraced ;)

Like i said, this is just matter of my mistake, when determining where i will place side braces, i forgot that on one end i have overflow box, so, i end up with very little space to work with.

Thank you both for help, i will stick to my original plan, silicone then remove old ones.