Remote frag tank Dino outbreak?

[Beefyreefy]

Interesting situation… I have a Dino outbreak in my frag tank only… It’s connected to a 200 + gallon mature system. Has anyone seen this before? Only one tank of a connected system? I’m not worried about treating it as I’ve have a method and experience fighting it before but I figured it might be an interesting debate as to how or why this can happen. I think the reason is I decided to turn my frag tank in this system to a grow out jawbreaker mushrooms, and used a gallon bucket of seachem matrix bio media for substrate. I think there just too much bio media sucking out nutrients with too much surface area for the Dinos to grow on. Display tank is free of all nuisance algae and absolutely zero evidence of Dino. I’m going to remove the seachem matrix first and go from there.

 

[Dan_P]

Interesting situation… I have a Dino outbreak in my frag tank only… It’s connected to a 200 + gallon mature system. Has anyone seen this before? Only one tank of a connected system? I’m not worried about treating it as I’ve have a method and experience fighting it before but I figured it might be an interesting debate as to how or why this can happen. I think the reason is I decided to turn my frag tank in this system to a grow out jawbreaker mushrooms, and used a gallon bucket of seachem matrix bio media for substrate. I think there just too much bio media sucking out nutrients with too much surface area for the Dinos to grow on. Display tank is free of all nuisance algae and absolutely zero evidence of Dino. I’m going to remove the seachem matrix first and go from there.

I think it is a nice demonstration that the surface not the water is one of the major factors driving dinoflagellate growth. Ditto for cyanobacteria.

 

[Dan_P]

Interesting situation… I have a Dino outbreak in my frag tank only… It’s connected to a 200 + gallon mature system. Has anyone seen this before? Only one tank of a connected system? I’m not worried about treating it as I’ve have a method and experience fighting it before but I figured it might be an interesting debate as to how or why this can happen. I think the reason is I decided to turn my frag tank in this system to a grow out jawbreaker mushrooms, and used a gallon bucket of seachem matrix bio media for substrate. I think there just too much bio media sucking out nutrients with too much surface area for the Dinos to grow on. Display tank is free of all nuisance algae and absolutely zero evidence of Dino. I’m going to remove the seachem matrix first and go from there.

I think it is a nice demonstration that the surface not the water is one of the major factors driving dinoflagellate growth. Ditto for cyanobacteria.

 

[EnterName]

You can have an apparently healthy system with no dinoflagellates and once you add new sand or rocks they get covered in dinos while nothing else appears affected. The same happens to freshly scraped glass in dinoflagellate-prone systems.
I think dinoflagellates and diatoms are simply one of the first organisms that can become visible to the naked eye when growing in numbers.

They just appear to be good in occupying spots that don't have a lot of coralline algae, micro algae, and maybe certain slowly growing bacteria on them yet. Local differences in nutrient availability might make a difference as well, as new substrate and rock might absorb a lot of phosphate in the beginning. Maybe their mucus isn't only keeping them from getting blown away in high flow areas and trapping other organisms to feed on, but also prevents new rock/substrate from adsorbing phosphate or even dissolves bound phosphates to become available to them again.

 

[CHSUB]

Dino are early colonizer, nothing more nothing less. With available resources and space they grow until they become less dominant, but they don’t go anywhere. Time to put this “boogeyman” to rest….

 

[EnterName]

Dino are early colonizer, nothing more nothing less. With available resources and space they grow until they become less dominant, but they don’t go anywhere. Time to put this “boogeyman” to rest….

I don't think anyone here claimed there wouldn't be any dinoflagellates just because they aren't visible. They are part of the natural food chain just as diatoms and many other organisms. It's like getting rid of nematodes :D not gonna happen.

 

[CHSUB]

I don't think anyone here claimed there wouldn't be any dinoflagellates just because they aren't visible. They are part of the natural food chain just as diatoms and many other organisms. It's like getting rid of nematodes :D not gonna happen.

I don’t know what others claim. I know dinos are not new to the hobby and like all other nuisance algae are not that difficult to control.

 

[EnterName]

I don't think anyone here claimed there wouldn't be any dinoflagellates just because they aren't visible. They are part of the natural food chain just as diatoms and many other organisms. It's like getting rid of nematodes :D not gonna happen.

I don’t know what others claim. I know dinos are not new to the hobby and like all other nuisance algae are not that difficult to control.

How do you know that they never are difficult to control?

 

[CHSUB]

How do you know that they never are difficult to control?

Got plenty!

 

[EnterName]

How do you know that they never are difficult to control?

Got plenty!

Well, many people have plenty. That's not really proof of anything.

Some people got rid of dinos by "cleaning up" (maintenance), others have great success when adding nutrients, others used silicate dosing (diatoms), UV, or ozone/H2O2/bleach dosing. Bottled bacteria, blackouts, or a combination of multiple things. Sometimes with more sometimes with less success or even worsening the issue during treatment.

I don't think anecdotal evidence is a good foundation for claims like dinos are always easy to handle. Especially when your own experience shows some possible contradictions between cleaning up and providing nutrients: https://www.reef2reef.com/posts/14068349/

We might disagree on these points, but I think we need to be more careful with such claims, even if for our own tanks a certain treatment has been proven successful (even repeatedly).

 

[rayadog]

Well, many people have plenty. That's not really proof of anything.

Some people got rid of dinos by "cleaning up" (maintenance), others have great success when adding nutrients, others used silicate dosing (diatoms), UV, or ozone/H2O2/bleach dosing. Bottled bacteria, blackouts, or a combination of multiple things. Sometimes with more sometimes with less success or even worsening the issue during treatment.

I don't think anecdotal evidence is a good foundation for claims like dinos are always easy to handle. Especially when your own experience shows some possible contradictions between cleaning up and providing nutrients: https://www.reef2reef.com/posts/14068349/

We might disagree on these points, but I think we need to be more careful with such claims, even if for our own tanks a certain treatment has been proven successful (even repeatedly).

Agreed, I don’t think there’s any one best answer for course of action and prognosis. But OP is trying to determine the oddity if a single tank in a connected system has an isolated (or not?) dino problem.

So to summarize, is the consensus the new media given for the reason?

I guess update in a little if the matrix did anything

 

[Beefyreefy]

Agreed, I don’t think there’s any one best answer for course of action and prognosis. But OP is trying to determine the oddity if a single tank in a connected system has an isolated (or not?) dino problem.

So to summarize, is the consensus the new media given for the reason?

I guess update in a little if the matrix did anything

I don’t want to take out all the matrix at once. I have tons of brittle stars, aptasia eating nudibranchs, and baby jaw breakers (and mamas) that I don’t want to kill or lose, so I’m taking out a fair amount every day. I also don’t want to kick up too much detritus at once either. I’m thinking my nutrients will come up slowly if I take my time removing it. It doesn’t seem to be bothering anything so I’m not in a huge rush. No evidence of visible dino anywhere else either. Stay tuned I’ll post the results of my plan.

 

[EnterName]

Well, many people have plenty. That's not really proof of anything.

Some people got rid of dinos by "cleaning up" (maintenance), others have great success when adding nutrients, others used silicate dosing (diatoms), UV, or ozone/H2O2/bleach dosing. Bottled bacteria, blackouts, or a combination of multiple things. Sometimes with more sometimes with less success or even worsening the issue during treatment.

I don't think anecdotal evidence is a good foundation for claims like dinos are always easy to handle. Especially when your own experience shows some possible contradictions between cleaning up and providing nutrients: https://www.reef2reef.com/posts/14068349/

We might disagree on these points, but I think we need to be more careful with such claims, even if for our own tanks a certain treatment has been proven successful (even repeatedly).

Agreed, I don’t think there’s any one best answer for course of action and prognosis. But OP is trying to determine the oddity if a single tank in a connected system has an isolated (or not?) dino problem.

So to summarize, is the consensus the new media given for the reason?

I guess update in a little if the matrix did anything

Fair point, we should come back to OP's initial question.

Even though there may be some disagreements on the treatment of dinos, I think most people agree that they can be "early colonizers" just as diatoms. I assume if the larger tank is fine, the attached tank will be fine as well with a bit of patience. The media probably goes through its own "ugly phase" and in a few days, weeks, or at a month, it's no longer covered in dinoflagellate mucus.

I think I have seen similar cases (e.g. new rock or substrate in a tank) on Reef2Reef and I also observe it every time I add new sand or rocks to my system. The dinos never spread beyond, but it will take a few days or weeks until their cell count normalizes.

 

[CHSUB]

don't think anecdotal evidence is a good foundation for claims like dinos are always easy to handle. Especially when your own experience shows some possible contradictions between cleaning up and providing nutrients: https://www.reef2reef.com/posts/14068349/

For reference on my post and some history. Specifically po4 in this post, over nearly 2 years po4 has gone from 0.0 to ~ .10 ppm using a Hanna. However a recent ICP still has po4 at .007 tested photometic. I consider all possibilities including that I’m completely wrong. Regardless, controlling algae including dinoflagellate seems beginner level stuff that has recently gotten into the “weeds” by a lot of hobbyist that consider themselves experts after a few years with a tank.

 

[EnterName]

Regardless, controlling algae including dinoflagellate seems beginner level stuff that has recently gotten into the “weeds” by a lot of hobbyist that consider themselves experts after a few years with a tank.

I personally see no meaningful difference between considering oneself an expert after a few years of keeping a tank and considering oneself an expert on dinoflagellate treatment after finding a method that works in one’s own tank(s).

It's a very limited point of view with a small sample size and no scientific backing. That's not something I would want to base any advice on, especially when even experienced reefers are sometimes having their troubles. I think there are too many factors at play to find a single solution which works all the time, especially when you yourself still "got plenty" of dinos even though you apparently know how to deal with them successfully long-term.

 

[CHSUB]

I personally see no meaningful difference between considering oneself an expert after a few years of keeping a tank and considering oneself an expert on dinoflagellate treatment after finding a method that works in one’s own tank(s).

It's a very limited point of view with a small sample size and no scientific backing. That's not something I would want to base any advice on, especially when even experienced reefers are sometimes having their troubles. I think there are too many factors at play to find a single solution which works all the time, especially when you yourself still "got plenty" of dinos even though you apparently know how to deal with them successfully long-term.

“Small” is a relative term….I maintained the saltwater aquariums at pet city in Seabrook NH back in the early 1980’s and have continued to have aquariums since. So that might be considered a small simple size at a few hundred aquariums, however I consider it enough to give advice. Currently I’m a member of 2 organizations in sw Florida that studies K. brevis, the dinoflagellate that causes red tide in the Gulf. It’s a volunteer position and I just collect water samples when requested, however I have attended multiple events that featured many of the most knowledgeable scientists on dinoflagellates.

Regarding “got plenty” of dinos, yes I can find them in my aquarium with a microscope but nuisance algae is nonexistent without the aid of a microscope. If I keep up vigorous maintenance and stay engaged with my aquarium, nuisance algae is never ever a problem. It only is under two scenarios: 1) lack of knowledge 2) lack of maintenance. Many new reefs don’t understand how to properly clean an aquarium. An example: my grandmother would tell me to clean my room after I just cleaned it, I thought it was clean and she absolutely did not.

 

[rayadog]

Well anyways. I genuinely want to learn because I used to cut corners and try to cut down on that. Sincerely asking what is properly cleaning a tank? More than just scraping and siphoning is what I’m envisioning.

Sorry to derail but might as well indulge til enough time has passed for OP’s update.

 

[EnterName]

I personally see no meaningful difference between considering oneself an expert after a few years of keeping a tank and considering oneself an expert on dinoflagellate treatment after finding a method that works in one’s own tank(s).

It's a very limited point of view with a small sample size and no scientific backing. That's not something I would want to base any advice on, especially when even experienced reefers are sometimes having their troubles. I think there are too many factors at play to find a single solution which works all the time, especially when you yourself still "got plenty" of dinos even though you apparently know how to deal with them successfully long-term.

“Small” is a relative term….I maintained the saltwater aquariums at pet city in Seabrook NH back in the early 1980’s and have continued to have aquariums since. So that might be considered a small simple size at a few hundred aquariums, however I consider it enough to give advice. Currently I’m a member of 2 organizations in sw Florida that studies K. brevis, the dinoflagellate that causes red tide in the Gulf. It’s a volunteer position and I just collect water samples when requested, however I have attended multiple events that featured many of the most knowledgeable scientists on dinoflagellates.

Regarding “got plenty” of dinos, yes I can find them in my aquarium with a microscope but nuisance algae is nonexistent without the aid of a microscope. If I keep up vigorous maintenance and stay engaged with my aquarium, nuisance algae is never ever a problem. It only is under two scenarios: 1) lack of knowledge 2) lack of maintenance. Many new reefs don’t understand how to properly clean an aquarium. An example: my grandmother would tell me to clean my room after I just cleaned it, I thought it was clean and she absolutely did not.

I genuinely appreciate your effort on Karenia brevis, and I fully agree that in this case cleaning up the tank would be the best solution, but I don't think K. brevis commonly becomes an issue in reef tanks. I'm not sure the few hundred tanks all had dinoflagellate issues and the events you attended were focused on dinoflagellates in reef tanks, but if it's about the gulf I can imagine that lower nutrients would be a commonly accepted solution in the scientific community as nutrient rich waters become more and more of a problem in nature.

If you manage to keep nutrients low enough with vigorous maintenance that it even keeps dinoflagellate growth at bay, it will certainly look effective, but appears to be a management approach not a permanent solution. Other methods have shown effectiveness beyond the duration of the treatment, which is why I still believe it's a good idea to give people various options to test until they find what works in their tanks. These options will include your approach of vigorous maintenance, but aren't limited to it if it doesn't appear to solve the issue or causes other problems.

I don't think "if cleaning up doesn't work, they just aren't cleaning up enough" is a good mindset for testing a hypothesis. Repeatability of results is extremely important for "scientific" evidence and if you just ignore contradicting evidence because "they weren't doing it thoroughly enough" you would never be able to fix your hypothesis. It also suggests that even experienced reefers that deal with dinos don't know how to properly maintain their tanks, and it fully ignores tanks in which adding nutrients fixes the issue.

As this discussion has become quite extensive I want to take the time to emphasize that my disagreement isn't of personal nature and I appreciate the exchange of ideas and experiences very much, so I want to genuinely thank you even if we can't find common ground.

 

[CHSUB]

Well anyways. I genuinely want to learn because I used to cut corners and try to cut down on that. Sincerely asking what is properly cleaning a tank? More than just scraping and siphoning is what I’m envisioning.

Sorry to derail but might as well indulge til enough time has passed for OP’s update.

Yesterday I did a ~15% wc which I do weekly. With that I cleaned all the flow pumps to insure peak flow, the glass, and the skimmer. More importantly turned off all flow and vigorously blew all the corals and rocks with a turkey baster, manually removed any stubborn visible algae, and lightly scrubbed any residue algae with a toothbrush. Allowed all debris to settle to the gravel and light vacuumed the top layer of gravel with the wc; wc water was very filthy. I do this weekly since I started the tank almost 2 years ago with dry rock. It has gotten easier because of coral growth and harder too because lack of room to put arm in tank because of coral growth….haha! Little things like cleaning the glass so snails eat algae on rocks vs glass and placing snails on algae also helps. Wc only without cleaning is not that effective in controlling algae.

In a year and a half my tank has gone from this to now…

 

[Beefyreefy]

Update:

Over the last week or so I removed all the matrix biomedia from my frag tank. I literally just transferred it to some containers that I then placed into my sump. I did clean, stir up, and use filter floss to capture all the detritus and nasties on its way to the sump. I’d say I have a gallon and a half volume wise of the matrix in the sump now in the two containers and there is no return of the Dino’s at this point. I am intrigued at the large volume of aptasia that came to the surface of the matrix containers though as I had a population of berghia keeping them at bay.

In hindsight I do believe it was the massive surface area of the matrix. I had an inch deep layered across the entire mushroom grow out frag tank. Now it’s the entire amount withe only a 10x10 in surface on the top in my sump.

I’ve now gone back to elevated egg crate and tiles with a gyre underneath removing all detritus. So far so good. Just see a couple little strands of Dino snot floating in my sump now. Will update again in a couple weeks