Roller mats v skimmers

DoninHouston · Dec 19, 2019

atoll said:
I don't own a roller mat, socks, filter wool or any other kind of pre filtration unless you call a skimmer pre filtration which in a way it is. I hear a lot about the latest pre filtration namely roller mat type pre filtration. Most of those who use them report a drastic if not complete lack of skimmate being produced. Just about everybody who reports this downturn in skimmate believes it is a good thing and I can see why. However, is that really the case? I ask because a skimmer as far as I know will remove stuff that perhaps a roller filter might not, I admit I don't really know am just putting it out there By stuff I mean compounds etc already dissolved in the water derived from foods not just bulk food. Roller mats are being touted as the latest and greatest, all I am asking is, is that really so and what perhaps a skimmer might remove a roller mat won't? Of course I expect those using roller mats to sing thier virtues but is there more to it than meets the eye esp scientific reports.

Hi, All. Happy Holidays. I read the threads about roller mats and skimmers and skimmate with interest since I have struggled with water quality until a recent purchase of an ORP monitor. I don't add ozone controlled by the monitor because that's an easy way to kill your corals. But I do use it to make manual adjustments to my skimmer. When I started this, my ORP readings were a disappointing mid-70's. They are now mid-400's, a welcome point and I can see those results in water color and clarity. What a learning tool.

FishDoc · Dec 19, 2019

atoll said:
I don't own a roller mat, socks, filter wool or any other kind of pre filtration unless you call a skimmer pre filtration which in a way it is. I hear a lot about the latest pre filtration namely roller mat type pre filtration. Most of those who use them report a drastic if not complete lack of skimmate being produced. Just about everybody who reports this downturn in skimmate believes it is a good thing and I can see why. However, is that really the case? I ask because a skimmer as far as I know will remove stuff that perhaps a roller filter might not, I admit I don't really know am just putting it out there By stuff I mean compounds etc already dissolved in the water derived from foods not just bulk food. Roller mats are being touted as the latest and greatest, all I am asking is, is that really so and what perhaps a skimmer might remove a roller mat won't? Of course I expect those using roller mats to sing thier virtues but is there more to it than meets the eye esp scientific reports.

Roller mats in my opinion are just as many have said before me, simply a less arduous way of getting fine mechanical filtration with the added simplicity of not having to swap and clean socks. So a roller mat will simply replace the need for floss/socks and serve as your main source of mechanical filtration. The benefits of a skimmer have more to due with the versatile benefits it can have for both the chemistry and filtration if your tank. Again, others have mentioned it’s ability to promote gas exchange through vigorous aeration but it also has so many other benefits to promote maintaining stability and ease of maintenance of a tank. It provides fine particle filtration through fractionation but can also increase ph through more advance forms of co2 removal. Skimmers can also have the benefit of maintaining salinity while two part dosing through wet skimming. I could keep going but this post is already too long ha. Roller mats and skimmers are in different leagues as far as I’m concerned. I will likely never go without a skimmer (on my reef tanks) but have lived without rollermats entirely. Hope this helps.

atoll · Dec 19, 2019

I think some on here have either misread my post or I have not explained what I meant to get over. I have used prefiltration in the past but when I switched from prefiltration to none at all my tank did better. My skimmer pulls out at lot. My waterfall ATS does more than reduce NO3 and PO4. The algae in my ATS grows at an amazing rate, my Oxydator does lots of things besides just adding O2 and alls good. I have SPS LPS growing and have some considered not so easy to keep fish. Do I need prefiltration on top, I don't believe so and the success of my aquarium suggests the same.

CuzzA · Dec 19, 2019

atoll said:
I think some on here have either misread my post or I have not explained what I meant to get over. I have used prefiltration in the past but when I switched from prefiltration to none at all my tank did better. My skimmer pulls out at lot. My waterfall ATS does more than reduce NO3 and PO4. The algae in my ATS grows at an amazing rate, my Oxydator does lots of things besides just adding O2 and alls good. I have SPS LPS growing and have some considered not so easy to keep fish. Do I need prefiltration on top, I don't believe so and the success of my aquarium suggests the same.

Nice tank. There are many ways to fillet this fish. You employ a different strategy letting waste break down and using an ATS. Neither way is wrong and both ways will produce successful results, you just have to spend more time on the tank than me. Which again, is okay if that's what you want to do.

atoll · Dec 19, 2019

CuzzA said:
Nice tank. There are many ways to fillet this fish. You employ a different strategy letting waste break down and using an ATS. Neither way is wrong and both ways will produce successful results, you just have to spend more time on the tank than me. Which again, is okay if that's what you want to do.

Perhaps I spend a little more time on my tank than you we don't know that but perhaps you are spending more on replacing your prefiltration media than I am harvesting my algae. However as you say neither of us are wrong well probably in what we do. I wonder what we will say in a decade and which will be the preferred method, maybe neither.

Rogueaquariums · Dec 19, 2019

magikfly said:
Skimmers are not very efficient at filtering out particles. Filter socks, roller mats, filter floss etc are better suited. Not having any mechanical fiiltration aside from a skimmer will lead to much quicker buildup of muck in the sump and elsewhere.

Agreed, I have a large display and I have a skimmer in my first chamber along with some filter pads and the second chamber I just purchased a Clarisea SK-5000 roller mat To help keep the tank cleaner.

GodZillaReef · Dec 19, 2019

I found once advanced in the hobby I was using too much exporting. It is possible with all the other equipment that the filter socks was just removing too much. I choose this time to use a simple skimmer only with socks to keep sump cleaner longer as others have stated. Much better results without chasing numbers. I use to run ATS, skimmer, carbon dosing, gfo chasing numbers but when i think about it now i was just stripping so much in the water that the coral was not getting its fair share. It is easy to think more is better but you need to let the coral get the nutrients but not let the organics break down/load up. Many ways to do this. Most systems that I've seen do well just use a single method.

Joe Grubbs · Dec 19, 2019

For my 4+ year old, fish overloaded, heavily fed, 160g mixed reef... I shifted from 4 - 4" filter socks to the rollermat specifically to eliminate the twice weekly effort to replace and clean the socks. As for the comments about the rollermat developing a smell, it sure can if left alone from start to end of roll. I find that cutting off the 'waste' end of the roll every couple of weeks is both quick as it is easy. As for the skimmer, its value in O2 exchange, as well as organic removal is undisputed... I run both. My nitrates run less than 10 ppm, PO4 is generally less than 0.2 ppm.

No shaming for the blue tank, dirty glass, & wiring challenges...

Rollermat, sump, & refug

Skimmer with about 1.5" skim after 4 days...

atoll · Dec 19, 2019

BTW, I do maybe 2 water changes a year, but am.not sure why and when I do it's only 5% or so. Apart from saving on expensive salt my tank looks good to me and my animals all seem in very good health, after all isn't it all that matters, I think so.

Justin4real · Dec 19, 2019

Hi all,

I fitted a roller mat 4 weeks ago and I run a skimmer which for me I’ll say it’s not not a gimmick but a gods send. I have been fighting with nitrates for months and since adding this mat roller (clarisea) it’s started dropping an I’ll say it now, by dropping from near 50ppm with socks and skimmer it’s now running at near to 2.5. Which I’m having to over feed the tank to keep it at this level.

water changes might be coming to an end soon which could start me on a savings spin but for £15 every two months I can’t see a problem. The socks are replaceable and washable but I’m going to see if I can one day was the Mat filter roll but not just yet. Wouldn’t want to try it now as it’s too cold to hang it out to dry. But if I have two rolls Ican see it lasting the winter months. Lol . But it’s apparent that people have doubts about them but I have only seen positive results.... as for my skimmer it’s skimming a lot darker an that’s only done half inch of really dark skim. Which it’s never been this gooood.

only way of knowinganything is to try them out and keep a log of all your parameters after adding them. But the two go hand in hand.

Loverman Smith · Dec 19, 2019

DoninHouston said:
Hi, All. Happy Holidays. I read the threads about roller mats and skimmers and skimmate with interest since I have struggled with water quality until a recent purchase of an ORP monitor. I don't add ozone controlled by the monitor because that's an easy way to kill your corals. But I do use it to make manual adjustments to my skimmer. When I started this, my ORP readings were a disappointing mid-70's. They are now mid-400's, a welcome point and I can see those results in water color and clarity. What a learning tool.

What kind of adjustments to your skimmer ?

MartinWaite · Dec 21, 2019

I have the Clarisea 5000 and a NYOS Quantum 220 skimmer on a 280litre system and really struggled to get any N&P results they were always at 0 no matter how much I was feeding like up to 9 times a day with 23 fish and corals in the tank. I haven't done a water change in 18 months. I have just upgraded my system to a 500 litre system and I haven't refitted the Clarisea as it's pipe fitting defeats the object of my twin 40mm waste water pipes as it only takes a single 32mm. So I intend to run without a roller mat til the new year then decide if I want the extra work of ditritus in the sump to vacuum out or fit an X-filter which is made to take upto 2 50mm pipes but looking at the sump with running for 3 days the roller mat will be fitted. There is quite a few people in the UK that I know of who have 2 roller mats and wash one while the other is in use.

atoll · Dec 22, 2019

MartinWaite said:
I have the Clarisea 5000 and a NYOS Quantum 220 skimmer on a 280litre system and really struggled to get any N&P results they were always at 0 no matter how much I was feeding like up to 9 times a day with 23 fish and corals in the tank. I haven't done a water change in 18 months. I have just upgraded my system to a 500 litre system and I haven't refitted the Clarisea as it's pipe fitting defeats the object of my twin 40mm waste water pipes as it only takes a single 32mm. So I intend to run without a roller mat til the new year then decide if I want the extra work of ditritus in the sump to vacuum out or fit an X-filter which is made to take upto 2 50mm pipes but looking at the sump with running for 3 days the roller mat will be fitted. There is quite a few people in the UK that I know of who have 2 roller mats and wash one while the other is in use.

No problem with detritus in my sump that's exactly where I want it and it will stay. Wonderful stuff IMO.

najer · Dec 22, 2019

2 refugiums and a skimmer, no waterchanges unless required, manual dosing.
Excuse the colours, still one pair of T5s to come on and leds still ramping up.
Both oxydators in the display currently dealing with lots of sulky leathers due to a pair of gobies I added a couple of months ago.

atoll · Dec 22, 2019

najer said:
2 refugiums and a skimmer, no waterchanges unless required, manual dosing.
Excuse the colours, still one pair of T5s to come on and leds still ramping up.
Both oxydators in the display currently dealing with lots of sulky leathers due to a pair of gobies I added a couple of months ago.

Very nice, well done.

Dr. Dendrostein · Dec 22, 2019

atoll said:
I think some on here have either misread my post or I have not explained what I meant to get over. I have used prefiltration in the past but when I switched from prefiltration to none at all my tank did better. My skimmer pulls out at lot. My waterfall ATS does more than reduce NO3 and PO4. The algae in my ATS grows at an amazing rate, my Oxydator does lots of things besides just adding O2 and alls good. I have SPS LPS growing and have some considered not so easy to keep fish. Do I need prefiltration on top, I don't believe so and the success of my aquarium suggests the same.

Some or much of the information we've been taught about certain corals and NO3 & PO4 in relations to them is off. But first, someone correct me if I'm wrong but the paper for these automatic pre filter equipment, the filtration in microns I believe 20 or 40 microns. This is enough to permits certain particles to go through the mechanical filter and so breakdown to NO3 & PO4. Those using these devices obviously have to rely on a skimmer and whatever else works for them.

Now getting back to corals and information we've been fed about them. There are some members here that have easily 50 + ppm in NO3 & high PO4. And still have very successful Reef tanks. One soft coral case in mind is the carnation coral, dendronephthya species. We're using no mechanical filtration as pre filter, dry rock and a canister filter with dry Rock Rubble and a little old activated carbon for biological filtration, no skimmer, but on the discharge of return pump, we have a DE filtration, made in house. These corals are supposed to be in very close to Ultra low nutrient conditions. And yet they are not. Parameters are nitrates 15 ppm, PO4 is ?, we do water changes every week 2 to 5 gallons when possible with real ocean water. And of course RO water to top off.

Also with a good establish clean up crew and pods this helps with excess food.

atoll · Dec 22, 2019

Dr. Dendrostein said:
Some or much of the information we've been taught about certain corals and NO3 & PO4 in relations to them is off. But first, someone correct me if I'm wrong but the paper for these automatic pre filter equipment, the filtration in microns I believe 20 or 40 microns. This is enough to permits certain particles to go through the mechanical filter and so breakdown to NO3 & PO4. Those using these devices obviously have to rely on a skimmer and whatever else works for them.

Now getting back to corals and information we've been fed about them. There are some members here that have easily 50 + ppm in NO3 & high PO4. And still have very successful Reef tanks. One soft coral case in mind is the carnation coral, dendronephthya species. We're using no mechanical filtration as pre filter, dry rock and a canister filter with dry Rock Rubble and a little old activated carbon for biological filtration, no skimmer, but on the discharge of return pump, we have a DE filtration, made in house. These corals are supposed to be in very close to Ultra low nutrient conditions. And yet they are not. Parameters are nitrates 15 ppm, PO4 is ?, we do water changes every week 2 to 5 gallons when possible with real ocean water. And of course RO water to top off.

Also with a good establish clean up crew and pods this helps with excess food.

Would I be correct in my assumption with 20 or 40 micron filters they don't just clog immediately but clog slowly and therefore the size of particles passing through get smaller and smaller until the flow is greatly reduced before winding on? Yes some particles will clog the holes with large particles but would there because build up of particles on the paper slowly reducing the flow through. I am thinking fats, slime proteins and the like.
I also know of many people with great looking tanks yet high NO3 and PO4 levels yet they don't even have algae problems at all.

Dr. Dendrostein · Dec 22, 2019

atoll said:
Would I be correct in my assumption with 20 or 40 micron filters they don't just clog immediately but clog slowly and therefore the size of particles passing through get smaller and smaller until the flow is greatly reduced before winding on? Yes some particles will clog the holes with large particles but would there because build up of particles on the paper slowly reducing the flow through. I am thinking fats, slime proteins and the like.
I also know of many people with great looking tanks yet high NO3 and PO4 levels yet they don't even have algae problems at all.

As to clogging, I think amount of food fed , when feeding time comes around AND programing of paper roll determines clogging, I think. We like simple, less equipment or equipment designed with fewer moving parts is nice. You know jet planes, commercial and especially military have multiple computers, that way plane doesn't come down so easy. Some member have thousands of dollars invested in their tanks, I can't see relying on one micro processor or controller to monitor and control ones tank or tanks. It's like playing Russian roulette eventually you're going down in this case the tank or tanks.

atoll · Dec 22, 2019

Dr. Dendrostein said:
As to clogging, I think amount of food fed , when feeding time comes around AND programing of paper roll determines clogging, I think. We like simple, less equipment or equipment designed with fewer moving parts is nice. You know jet planes, commercial and especially military have multiple computers, that way plane doesn't come down so easy. Some member have thousands of dollars invested in their tanks, I can't see relying on one micro processor or controller to monitor and control ones tank or tanks. It's like playing Russian roulette eventually you're going down in this case the tank or tanks.

Lots of things will stick to the holes in filter paper reducing micron size like fats etc as said so a 40 micron might soon become a 20 micron and so on.
I agree with computer controllers. I dont have one nor believe are needed by many who have them. The only automation I have is a Tunze ATU with built in alarm, seperate thermostat and heater and programmable lights. No Apex not probes to fail or need cleaning and regular attention. Just my preference as I know many people swear by such.