saving a tank from bryopsis outbreak

Discussion in 'Nano Reefs' started by kimba, Nov 13, 2015.

  1. Triggreef

    Triggreef Zoa Addict R2R Supporter CTARS Member Build Thread Contributor

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    Lots of variables there. Depends on fish/bio load and size of old/new tanks and amounts of liverock etc.

    I transferred my 72g tank into my 200g with no problems or spikes whatsoever and I had a huge bio load, but a ton of liverock too. Sump was also kept from old tank to new tank. Takes some planning and proper procedures to move things along in a timely and effective manner.

    As far as keeping GHA and bryopsis out indefinitely, good luck with that. Each time you add a frag your going to get something else with it. No matter how careful you are it will always find a way in. Better to have a plan to deal with it effectively IMO.

    I wish I took pics of my frag tank covered in bryopsis so high you couldn't see the corals. I pulled out what I could, but 20 emerald crabs in a 40g tank, completely devoured any trace of brypsis in under a week.

    What inspired me to do that was a previous explosion of bubble algae in my 200g. (I attributed to re-homing 6 tangs all at once that must have been keeping it in check before) I added 20 emeralds to that. they went to work but not fast enough. Added 20 more. Same results. 20 more and that was magic (So a total of 60 crabs/200g). Total of about 5 or 6 weeks from the first purchase of 20, and no more bubble algae. I then relocated many to other tanks but I still have at least 20 in there to keep a good maintenance going.
     
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  2. kimba

    kimba Well-Known Member

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    Hmmmm...I need to think about this. I will think out loud so everyone can follow my reasoning and correct me if I'm wrong.

    There had to be a reason WHY I have GHA /briopsis. I need to fix THAT. I'm gonna be honest and say it's 2 things.
    1. I basically stopped doing water changes regularly
    2. Bad flow (I hadn't cleaned my pump or lines since my move in 2012) I also have an old wave maker that doesn't work anymore and is probably hindering my water flow at this point.

    I also have old lighting (should have been replaced in Feb) and was using old salt.

    It might be easier fighting the GHA/briopsis in the new tank with better equipment, right?
     
  3. nervousmonkey

    nervousmonkey LPS Lover, SPS Enabler R2R Supporter

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    Yes and no. Yes it is always easier with better equipment, but no, it isn't easier to fight the GHA/bryopsis in a new system vs. the one you have. What Brandon is saying that I'll elucidate on here, since he is the one that opened me up to thinking about forced tank compliance, is that you don't have to wait for anything to "happen" or occur in your tank. You want clean looking LR in your tank? Take it out and scrub it in saltwater, even old water from a WC, put it back in when it's clean enough, and voila, you have clean LR. You want a tank to look brand new but keep the same LR and what not so you don't have to cycle it? Take out your fish and corals, put them in a temporary container, take out LR (scrub with procedure above), vacuum out all sand, then empty your tank, take some peroxide and vinegar to it, then when clean enough for you, put it all back in with freshly mixed saltwater, and there you go. Brand new looking tank but with all of your corals, fish, inverts, etc. in the tank and you have forced tank compliance. That's it, simple as that.

    If you don't want GHA/bryopsis, then just force your tank into doing what you want it to but making it do what you want. It's harder to do that on a 200G obviously, but it "could" be done if someone was motivated enough to do so. You will not have a mini-cycle or any other problem that everyone says you will. Won't happen, period. Anyone that doesn't believe that hasn't tried it.
     
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  4. kimba

    kimba Well-Known Member

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    My new cleaning crew is doing a good job cleaning my coral. I can keep manualy removing it as well. My LS looks pretty good too. Not sure how much is in there, but it's not as deep as it use to be. I bought 10 lbs of LS sand the other day to add to what I have.
    when my new tank comes could I:
    1. Siphon out my tank water into a lg container along with corals, critters and my fish.
    2. Add old LS to 10 lbs new LS and kinda mix (in new tank)
    3. Add 10lbs new LR
    4. Make up 2 gal water and add to new tank.
    5. Take enough water from old tank (in container) add to new tank.
    6. Let things settle then add coral, cleaning crew and my fish to new tank.

    Can I do that?
    I should mention my new tank is also a 12 gal.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2015
  5. brandon429

    brandon429 Well-Known Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award

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    You could do that, but some waste will follow and it needs to be removed since our tanks tend to sink up the waste

    You can use old water but it's not needed. We do 100% wc on hundreds of small nanos and picos and it is harmless, so starting with fully clean water is better.

    Regarding old sand, it should be rinsed so harshly that no detritus or silt can be had when it's disturbed, so if you want to mix it w new you can, they w both be detritus free.

    Moving tanks and changing water params instantly within the ranges we work isn't harmful. Moving waste between tanks is the only action that can kill the setup or cause a cycle when considering the typical live rock we all keep

    I would:
    Use no old water in new tank

    Import zero detritus from old sb into new tank, the bacteria are not dislodged with a rinse, only the detritus. On the new sand, it would be rinsed so well there would be no clouding then just set up the new tank and not cycle since moving tanks without moving detritus is always easy to do cycle free. Now for another thread, consider how different it is -not- when using cured live rock when setting up a brand new tank skip cycle, which is just moving from pet store to home. Can skip cycle there too, cycles don't have to comply when transitions are done in house only, across town is fine too


    Some people out there have never, ever, ever cycled a reef tank out of bio pride more so than anything else :)

    It is not to just break rules for the heck of it, this is part of forced tank compliance. You tell it when to cycle and have algae, not other way around and when you find the balances you'll work less to force compliance. When I want to do something harsh and thorough to my reef to help it, like a full take apart cleaning, I need that ability so I don't kill my ten year old system. When that system was started with corals on day one right when the rock went in ten yrs ago, it wasn't to break rules it was because that's permissible under certain circumstances just like rip cleaning is, and now we'll use it to move your tanks with no cycle


    The surest way to get a mini cycle in reefing is to use an API ammonia test kit :)
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2015
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  6. kimba

    kimba Well-Known Member

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    Hmmmm no offense, but this sounds kinda crazy. Why then do ppl cycle their tanks if your saying I can take a brand new tank, new LS (after rinsing it so well), new LR and 100% new water. That would basically be starting from the beginning. Why wouldn't I have to cycle it?

    Not trying to argue, I just want to fully understand.
    Thanks
     
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  7. brandon429

    brandon429 Well-Known Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award

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    No argument taken I posed that purely for bio discussion, state a crazy sounding null and test it. everyone reading should chime in we want pros and cons for all things reef debated here.

    controlling cycling and if it occurs at all specifically sets the care boundaries we can use on living systems, so we should learn those boundaries early. taking home parts of a reef from a store is just like moving parts of your reef at home, transition time intervals and techniques matter and wielded correctly, give the keeper total control. knowing the history of the Live rock is also key but certain tests will tell anyway if not known.

    if large rip water changes and total system upset are going to kill my system, I need someone to tell me a large water change and full sandbed cleaning is going to recycle my tank in 2006 :)

    consider the benefits if it turns out to be true... forced tank compliance: indefinite lifespan tank, no biological lifespan. reefing until a hardware issue kills it, but not because it wasn't going to live 100 years otherwise.

    if someone can predict cycling issues and algae issues beforehand, then tank lifespans change in our favor imo.



    The vast majority of tankers have a hands off sandbed via berlin method 1996 days and store up indefinitely which keeps our algae threads active, and keeps the recyclers cyclin'

    cycling as a collective term is a staple of the hobby and simply put there's no rush, its ok to wait arbitrary weeks with dead shrimp degrading. This gives one time to learn salt level precision, temp and makeup water precision, and a good place to start learning, I'm not advocating skipping basic reefing learning.

    all of this ties directly into when tanks have to cycle and when its an option.


    actual microbiology is what sets the care methods one can choose if they want something more exacting than the old ways. in 1996 given care rules, pico reefs were stated to be impossible to sustain long term and were novelties but didn't compete by growing SPS, for example. They crashed with algae in short order.
    peroxide use in tank was claimed to kill off the bacteria
    my how we've changed heh



    but there are times where given all basic precision abilities a keeper needs to not recycle and these include:

    setting up tanks with twenty thousand dollars of bounce mushrooms at MACNA

    moving to larger reefs


    moving across town

    moving from the pet store into a tank

    making the aquariums from a popular reality show not recycle when adding 40 fish on day one of a system that has all plastic insides. The ethics of blast adding ocean harvested fish aside, the tanks are not cycling in the common sense, specific science covers how cycles can be seemingly skipped via pre seeding of materials. Cycling was done remotely and then transferred into the system either as sand, water-borne nitrifers, or filter material pre aging along with options of dosers and binders against ammonia.

    -a tank that develops a leak is certainly thankful for skip cycling science regarding the new tank.


    cleaning up a formerly non compliant tank to force compliance and many more


    forced compliance tank cycling:
    http://reef2reef.com/threads/new-ta...rimp-live-rock-no-shrimp.214618/#post-2466265
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2015
  8. cjsreefaus

    cjsreefaus Well-Known Member

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    Alternatively start again with new uninfected rock.
     
  9. kimba

    kimba Well-Known Member

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    I see a little more what your saying and it is very interesting.

    I started 10 yrs ago and things have changed a bit.:) I havn't kept up with things and can't remember it all. I feel like a newbie and in a sense I am.

    I think I will just switch tanks, but for some reason I want to use my old water. (Somehow makes e feel better.) Still seems wierd changing EVERYTHING 100%

    Thanks for everyones input. I will post pictures when I get it. :D
     
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  10. powers2001

    powers2001 started reefing 1999 Build Thread Contributor

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    Your clean up crew should keep the algae in check. If not double your CUC. I would leave the chemicals out especially the peroxide. If you use the magnesium and peroxide you should do a complete water change afterward.
     
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  11. brandon429

    brandon429 Well-Known Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award

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    Also, all that above is merely about options not that moving old water is bad. Considering that actual waste matter is the issue, it's cleaner than moving old sand ~
    (Ok to move old sand, blast clean 100% w clean sw or even distilled water, still not antibacterial action. :)

    I do this often in practice of long term reefing

    The important part is that when drastic moves are required there's a repeatable way to do it safely and that the real microbiology of the bacteria we work with shows them to be the toughest collective living group in our tanks, but so many decades of care restriction was put solely on not killing them from not knowing they are that tough/adapted

    The complete and total trick to working with living materials in the reef tank to avoid a cycle is to keep items submerged ideally, and there's variance in allowance there but submerged=no dieoff, and to thoroughly isolate/remove waste in the tank that can harbor rotting proteins (ammonia) away from delicate living material

    It's ok to let any peroxide degrade in the tank it's only hours...many dose full running sps reefs at high levels we document...again it's not a molecule of real concern it's about as impactful as kalk but on different params. If you can find an equivalent way to remove and lyse target algae then choose that method if it makes algae gone similarly in two days.

    If rotting waste stores and living reef materials don't mix and submersion time variables are kept safe, a cycle is avoided reliably.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2015
  12. Triggreef

    Triggreef Zoa Addict R2R Supporter CTARS Member Build Thread Contributor

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    Remember bacteria is on your surfaces inside the tank, not the water itself. Changing all your water is no problem at all. As long as you are not changing water with 350 CA and 8alk with water that has 450 CA and 11 alk you should be good. Keep your live rock submerged the whole time to avoid die off as stated. And if you reuse sand make sure it is rinsed in salt water so your not killing bacteria. And keep it submerged as well.

    I didn't realize you have a nano this whole time.
     
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  13. kimba

    kimba Well-Known Member

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    Okay, I'm starting to get it now. After rinsing sand I was planning to put it in my empty tank, BUT now I will fill my tank 1/2 full so LS & LR will be submerged causing less dye off. :)

    My tank comes tomorrow, I'm so excited! I haven't been excited about my tank in years. I will fill it with water and let it sit over night to make sure no leaks and everything works.

    I thought I was going to have to run both tanks for a month or so while my new one cycled. This is awesome!!

    THANKS GUYS
     
  14. Breadman03

    Breadman03 Well-Known Member Catskill Reef Member

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    My system was my sump and a 100 gallon rubbermaid stock tank for over a year. Thursday 11/5, I moved everything into my new 150 display that had been running for two days just to leak test and get water to temp. I moved my sump over, then all of my rock and livestock. My S. gigantea didn't skip a beat and my clowns spawned last night, 11/15. I found your thread because I need to go after my bryopsis...
     
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  15. nervousmonkey

    nervousmonkey LPS Lover, SPS Enabler R2R Supporter

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    Yep. it is that easy. You can cycle the new tank if you want, but it is not required. It's already cycled so as long as you don't do something to cause your tank to cycle, you're fine (e.g., taking your LR out and killing it purposefully, clean it yes most certainly, but kill all of it no). Just make your tank be free of algae and keep it free by forcing it to comply with what you want. Once you understand the biochemistry, it all makes a ton of sense doesn't it? :cool:
     
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  16. kimba

    kimba Well-Known Member

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    I'm going tomorrow to get my LR, since I'm not cycling my tank, could I add a cleaner shrimp? Or should I wait until my tank is all switched over?

    The LFS is an hour drive, so I figured I would get one while I was there, but don't want to rush it.
     
  17. brandon429

    brandon429 Well-Known Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award

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    yes if it was mine id wait until the sw is done and things stable, only because those can run a little picky sometimes, we classify lysmata cleaners as pretty weak compared to other shrimp. mine around here cost $30 id def wait until move is done.

    after a move, the right work is to do a large water change the next day, for two reasons.

    most everyone in the hobby does too little export and begins a life of pure storage right up until algae takeover, so its a reversal of that habit through work, big water change work and careful detailing of the steps during.

    it is a complete safety hedge against any dieoff from unfactored events. sure there are binders and chems to add for ammonia safety, but that doesn't address the first reason and in fact it supports the hands off reefing mode, no need for that just after a transfer. If someone wants to guide a reef into working and then back off after all systems go that's different (eventually a sink catchup w be needed but it doesn't mean large changes all the time)

    when a time interval is in question for a reef, large water changes especially on smaller nanos is the solution to just about any problem at all.

    The recommendation that doing fewer vs large water changes is not associated with the longest lived nano and pico systems, although its a common mode. Many tanks of the month use it, but check for 8 yr plus running tanks of the month in the nano range...no references. 3 yrs is avg
    its not that one system is better, its just that the way works and is better than a guess how to do an action. if someone wants an old nano, you could do what the old nanos do or branch off and invent a new way, nice to have both options. some do not want a variable outcome.

    you could get by with no water change after the move, a no cycle approach was outlined. but the act of doing a large water change thereafter, and other time you happen to consider it, is specifically what makes a nano live longest among documented old nanos in the world.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2015
  18. kimba

    kimba Well-Known Member

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    Maybe I will wait a bit.
    I also want to get either an emerald crab or a sally light foot crab. I have had both in the past (but not at the same time). Not sure which one I want. They are both pretty cool.

    would it be too much to add the cleaner shrimp and a crab at the same time?

    As far as water changes, I am assuming my phosphates are high (thus the GHA and briopsis) so I have already done a lot of water changes. I went through 6 gal last week and just bought 6 more.

    when you say do a big water change the next day, are you talking like 50%? And then after everything gets all switched over and settled, how much how often should I keep doing?
     
  19. brandon429

    brandon429 Well-Known Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award

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    opinions completely vary here, that's fair and accurate to say. the fact my total system is one gallon total makes it very easy for me to recommend giant water changes, I scratch my head sometimes as the 100g systems hesitate :)

    so agreed the whole point of balanced reefing is to be less work and more return, no doubt. That right there is why people switch to bare bottom, specifically you can clean and export them better, with less work. a sandbed is so retentive it takes crazy actions like what I posted in my thread in the gen discussion forum about taking apart my pico...or they do repeated minor cleanings/stirrings of it which casts waste into the water column but its at least some address.

    in my tank, a dirty sandbed doesn't exist. at worst the top inch w be dirty then ill rip clean it, so it is not a liability to me.

    but a bare bottom, you can export the whole tank with a quarter gallon siphon because it all rested on clean glass, see detritus, and remove it.
    http://reef2reef.com/threads/lets-d...-the-key-to-indefinite-reef-life-span.222105/

    these sb tanks take lots of % work, comparatively.

    my angle as hard as it is to discern is that there is no longer a limit on safe % water changes, I do nothing less than 100% and as my thread shows here, I do it roughly, my sandbedded tank is literally as clean as a no sb tank and that makes me free of invaders because ive disallowed them, and free of the typical fuels they like anyway once let in (in typical care tanks)

    I have no fish, or id do about 75% and match the replace water better, something to consider for nano aquarists who use fish. the point is better export than we've ever been allowed to do, for fear of recycling a tank.

    changing 50% is just fine as a day after safety hedge, but anytime you wanted to do the full 6 that's ok too, the ongoing rule demonstrable is that the only dangerous aspect aside from mixing the water wrong or getting in a contaminant, is to stir up a dangerous deep sand bed partially along the way. if we are moving tanks, disassembling them for cleaning, or taking them apart to get at set-in algae, then the concern is the sandbed to watch out for, and reacclimation of sensitive fish if applicable.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2015
  20. kimba

    kimba Well-Known Member

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    Okay, thanks.

    Here is an updated pic of the progress on my algae issues. At first it didn't seem like much, but now I notice a difference, especially on the coral. The snails have been going crazy on my wall. You can't really tell in the pic. Because it all looks green, but they have cleared a lot.

    20151117_164701.jpg
     
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